What has the last couple weeks proved about our government?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Hey Subman,

How about this one?

http://www.constitutionparty.com/

A brief glance shows promise. However, how to get one up on a platform?

-S

[August]

Seven Principles of the Constitution Party are:
1. Life: For all human beings, from conception to natural death;
2. Liberty: Freedom of conscience and actions for the self-governed individual;
3. Family: One husband and one wife with their children as divinely instituted;
4. Property: Each individual's right to own and steward personal property without government burden;
5. Constitution: and Bill of Rights interpreted according to the actual intent of the Founding Fathers;
6. States' Rights: Everything not specifically delegated by the Constitution to the federal government is reserved for the state and local jurisdictions;
7. American Sovereignty: American government committed to the protection of the borders, trade, and common defense of Americans, and not entangled in foreign alliances.

1. With certain exceptions i'd agree
2. To vague to agree with
3. Agree but "divinely instituted" is unnecessary and divisive.
4. Agree
5. Agree
6. Agree
7. Agree though i'd keep one or two foreign alliances in order to further the goals of the other committments.

[Foxtrot]

Demcrats or Republicans...we are screwed from both sides.
Let's ask British to take over and save us

[baggygreen]

Originally Posted by Foxtrot

Demcrats or Republicans...we are screwed from both sides.
Let's ask British to take over and save us

Cue the John Cleese Open Letter to the USA:rotfl:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by August

I'm sad to say that in spite of all efforts to the contrary Libertarians just aren't a viable political party, at least not in the traditional sense. Heck, they can barely agree on a national platform, let alone present a united front to go against the political machines of the GoP or the Dems.

That's true. We have an identity crisis because we have a few people who are so far to the right that they have actually circumnavigated the political spectrum and ended up on the left. We have no choice but to accept them, because that is our platform.


However, what really strikes me as being tragic is that a party that adheres to Constitutional beliefs and practices fiscal conservatism is seen as "extremist" and "unelectable". The Constitutional party suffers from the same drawbacks, but is even less successful because it only siphons votes from the conservatives, for the most part.


There was I time when the Republicans truly stood against the left, but their platform has shifted radically in the past 70 years. Now they have been drawn to the left by political machine. They must appeal to the left to some degree or die.


The struggle of the marginalized right-wing parties may be in vain, but we will fight nonetheless.

[August]

I don't see the Libertarians as extremist Lance. Their biggest problem is internal dissension. That's imo what makes them unelectable. Nature of the beast I guess though. It's tough to get a bunch of independent minds to work together effectively.

[Sailor Steve]

Well, the so-called Constitution party lost me pretty quickly.

First they grabbed me with

2. Liberty: Freedom of conscience and actions for the self-governed individual

And then went on to list some which would deny that very freedom to anyone who thinks differently than them.

It looks to me like religion disguised as liberty.

[Hylander_1314]

I often wonder how the Founding Fathers would be viewed today if they were here. I also wonder how they would view the Constitutional Republic they instituted, as to what it has "evolved" into. Intrusive sprawling government, taxation without representation (the tax they were most infuriated over was 1%, and how much taxation do we accept now), and the suspension of heabius corpus. All in the name of security, and well being.

Let the people be, and they will prosper was Jefferson's attitude. Fiscally conservitive to the point of miserly, (the social programs didn't exist) since government was viewed as a negative influence (the community took care of itself, for a lot less money, for over 100 years). They also sufferred together like the people of Paoli PA, where there is a monument to the people who were slaughtered by the King's troops for being accused of assisting the Continetals. If it is to be a positive influence, it must take from one who has, to give to one who doesn't. The rights of the citizens to be free in their persons and papers without government intrusion, and the land you own is yours, not just in title, but in whole. We now have emminent domain, and accept it. So if the government from the local level up to the feds wants your land, you're S.O.L. They are not required to pay you for what is legally yours.

I wonder how they would view the attitude that the Constitution is a living breathing document open to interpretation? Or that it doesn't apply when the government wants something or to prove a point to keep the people towing the line they want. Either way one looks at it, it's tyranny, not liberty. For you have no recourse. They like to call it "voluntary compliance". Now if that isn't a contradiction in terms, I don't know what is, since each word on it's own negates the other. The definition they use to explain it is, do you at 2:00am stop at a red light? If you do, that's voluntary compliance. Is it? There are traffic laws and statutes that have penalties attached to them if you don't. That's compliance. If you don't comply, to the traffic laws and statutes, you won't be driving for very long. Legally anyways. When you join the armed forces, or the local police dept. or fire dept., without a draft, you do that of your own fee will. To me, there's a difference there unless I've completely missed the point. The boat left, and I wasn't on it. Dang!

Anyways, to get a new platform up and running is going to require the people getting massively involved, or the new platform would have to sell out to the money powerelite, and we would still be in the same situation as we are right now. Folks would need to be more responsible for themselves, instead of depending on government. Which is a tough one since it is rammed down your throat that you can't even wipe your own backside without government involvement.

[AVGWarhawk]

What I find funny about the bail out, both parties agree to cut spending. The first vote on the bail out bill did not pass. It passed the second time around only because more pork barrel spending was added to the bill. Both parties can not help themselves. Spending is like a drug to all of them. The bill included funding for wooden arrows used by kids for crying out loud. Both parties want to stop pork barrel spending yet right under the noses of every tax payer, the dump in more pork. It is truely unbelievable.

We do need a new party...it should include beer, good food and very loud music.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by August

I don't see the Libertarians as extremist Lance. Their biggest problem is internal dissension. That's imo what makes them unelectable. Nature of the beast I guess though. It's tough to get a bunch of independent minds to work together effectively.

I don't see them as extremist either, but a lot of people do. Or at least, many of the people I have met. Internal dissent is a problem for us, just as it is with any party, but what kills us the most is being so outside of mainstream politics. Go up to any person and tell them that you think it would be wise to abolish the Department of Education. A few will agree, Some will question, but most will just look at you like you've grown a third head.

That's the battle that we fight every day. The Federal system is so entrenched today that most people don't even know that there was a time when the Federal government was small and had relatively little power, or at the least, they don't think such a system is viable anymore.

The State controls the educational system, the left controls the media, and now the state is extending its control into the financial sector(directly, as opposed to taxation through inflation, bracket-creep, and excessive regulation of private industry), and therefore, the economy. It's like some kind of Orwellian nightmare.

Even the Republicans are not guiltless. They have sold individual sovereignty for political purposes on many occassions. And so, the political machine has become more of a machine than we ever could have imagined. It isn't about the health of the nation or even having a good platform anymore, it's about winning votes in the most effecient means possible. Politics is a science now, and if you don't believe me, just wait for McCain-Palin to win in 08' as I have often predicted. If a fool like me can see that coming, just imagine how far we must be down the path to socialism.

And it isn't even as if the government is evil or has some nefarious design or anything(usually), the dominance of the state is simply a by-product of a bunch of politicians who honestly want to do what is best and coincidentally win some votes. Democrats are not evil, they just think that they can help everybody without destroying the economy, which they can't, but they don't know that. Unfortunately, in their misguided attempts to create a "fair" system they have forced the Republicans farther to the left in order to remain politically competitive. The Republicans' only advantage is that most Democrats don't vote. If they did, I could easily predict which party would control the House, the Senate, and the Presidency(and therefore, the Supreme Court) for at least 50 years.

This country is, practically, beyond the point of no return. We failed to limit government enough to prevent the rise of a plutocratic system. Y'know, the same system that has exsisted in all governments and destroyed every great nation that ever exsisted?

It will be tragic to see the U.S. follow the exact same steps as the British Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Spanish Empire, The Roman Empire, The Persian Empire, the Chinese Dynasties, The Egyptian Empire, and so on and so forth. They all had one thing in common. Concentration of power that led to economic, and therefore, military, collapse.

There is no perfect system. Eventually, some a$$hole will manage to find a way to manipulate any system. All we can do is limit the power any one individual or group can hold to the maximum extent possible without resorting to anarchy. All that the Libertarians can manage is to delay the rise of plutocracy for as long as possible, and fight it when it manifests itself.

So, as Libertarians, our message is that we do not know what is best for you, but we will give you the freedom to make your own choice, and in the end, who knows what is best for you?

[August]

Well Libertarians will always have my vote, unless of course there is a Cool Moose party candidate running, but I don't have quite the gloomy view of the future that you have.

Best thing the American voter could do imo is adopt a policy of never voting for the incumbent. A tar and feathering or two wouldn't hurt either...

[Frame57]

This economic crisis needs to be investigated and people need to be held accountable and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I hammered Frank and Dodd and I would also nail Paulson too. You can bet on that. These bums are treachourous and have put their greed above their country. Time to start building gallows again in this country.

[Tchocky]

Can't start locking people up for trying to make money within the law.


Might as well throw out the idea of laws while you're at it.

Or call a Code Schiavo on the credit crunch.

[Frame57]

No. That is why a thorough investigation needs to be done first. They new what they were doing and they new the outcome and left the American people in the dark.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Frame57

No. That is why a thorough investigation needs to be done first. They new what they were doing and they new the outcome and left the American people in the dark.

Whut?
Who's this "they"?
Can't really see a winner here.
Qui bono?