Was the XXI pointless???

[Puster Bill]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

For the Germans it was pointless cause the war ended! If the XXI was cruising the atlantic around 1941 onwards i think the battle would of been decided...:hmm:

This isn't as out in left field as it might seem at first. The British R-Class had performance between a Type XXIII and XXI back at the end of WWI. The technology to do it was there, but the doctrine wasn't.

First, on the British side, the R boats were envisioned as anti-submarine submarines. The problem was that sensors, like passive sonar and ASDIC, hadn't caught up. The British never made the doctrinal leap to understand the advantages of using them in a conventional anti-ship role.

Likewise, the doctrine on the German side was stuck in WWI, despite the idea of the Wolfpack. Submarines were primarily surface ships that could submerge if they *HAD* to. They didn't need decent underwater speed or endurance, because they hadn't needed it in WWI.

I actually think that Germany would have been better served if they had looked at the R Class that the British had, and developed the doctrine around high speed submerged boats. They had the advantage of working from a clean slate, it would have been relatively painless for them to do so when starting up the Ubootwaffe in the 1930's. Trying to do it in 1943-44 after several years of war, while you are geared up to make designs that are basically just improved UBIII boats from WWI is much harder.

[CapZap1970]

Adolf Hitler didn't pay much attention to the Kriegsmarine, because he had as his best advisor Fieldmarschall Hermann Goering (they were very close friends back from 1928), who has openly against giving any budget increase to the Kriegsmarine or the Wehrmacht. Just an example to illustrate Goering's way of thinking:
When the british troops were cornered at Dunkirk and the Panzers and Infantry Division were at less than 5 hours, Goering told Hitler to stop them, because his Luftwaffe was more than enough to take care of the british troops. Of course, his Luftwaffe did little or nothing at all and you know the results. This gave the british High Command and Sir Winston Churchill more than enough time to plan and execute the evacuation. Almost the same happened when Goering reviewed the research budget for the u-boats and many other branches of service in the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe as well. And he stood against it from the beginning. Goering was very selfish and could never have the vision of seeing the 3 forces (Navy, Army and Airforce) working together to achieve a common benefit.
There is the answer to why did the germans neglect the production of more sophisticated u-boats, until it was too late to make a difference.
CapZap

[Dantenoc]

I'll get clobbered for saying this on this forum, but the whole U-boat war effort was pointless, nevermind what type of boat. There is no way that Britain could have been starved to death... ever. It just isn't possible.

Besides, Hitler was never betting on starving England out of existence, but rather the original plan was to make it suficiently uncomfortable for the British so that they would just sign a peace treaty where they would basicaly leave Hitler be and have his way on continental Europe. Hitler was betting that the British had only been allies of the French for a short while but enemies for ever (hey, how about that hundred years war?). Of course the whole deal is more complicated than that, but that was the general idea.

He just miscalculated the Churchill factor. I beleive Chamberlain would have signed for peace.

[Crimguy]

You won't get clobbered by me. I agree with you 100%. They also didn't account for the US to be able to ramp up production as fast as they did, or for British ASW technology/skills to rise as quickly as it did. Donitz was in denial about aircraft equipped with radar until late 42-43, despite the Hudson's that appeared out of nowhere, at night, over the Bay of Biscay as early as April, 42.

Germany just didn't have the production capability to make a dent. I do think having reliable type XXI's as early as 1940 would have had an effect on Allied shipping though. But they didn't have many boats of the Type II/VII/IX class in 1939-40 as it was, so it's a pretty big stretch, almost to the point of asking the Wehrmacht to field Me-262's or, more accurately in my opinion, F-86 sabres during WWII. Gets to the point of science fiction.

Originally Posted by Dantenoc

I'll get clobbered for saying this on this forum, but the whole U-boat war effort was pointless, nevermind what type of boat. There is no way that Britain could have been starved to death... ever. It just isn't possible.

Besides, Hitler was never betting on starving England out of existence, but rather the original plan was to make it suficiently uncomfortable for the British so that they would just sign a peace treaty where they would basicaly leave Hitler be and have his way on continental Europe. Hitler was betting that the British had only been allies of the French for a short while but enemies for ever (hey, how about that hundred years war?). Of course the whole deal is more complicated than that, but that was the general idea.

He just miscalculated the Churchill factor. I beleive Chamberlain would have signed for peace.

[HunterICX]

XXI pointless for WW2?
yes as they where too late

XXI pointless after war?
no it has been a good jump for the Submarine development

[STEED]

The XXI always falls in the what if situation and we will never know, Hitler canceled all long term research in 1940 believing he had won and no one could stop him.

But, Hitler had lost the Blitzkrieg war with Russia and the war would drag on. Research was stepped up but by then it was too late, the Allies had won the scientific war and it was only a matter of time before Germany faced total defeat.

[IrischKapitan]

Originally Posted by Puster Bill

The British R-Class had performance between a Type XXIII and XXI back at the end of WWI. The technology to do it was there, but the doctrine wasn't.

First, on the British side, the R boats were envisioned as anti-submarine submarines. The problem was that sensors, like passive sonar and ASDIC, hadn't caught up. The British never made the doctrinal leap to understand the advantages of using them in a conventional anti-ship role.

Yes the R class was a superb design, way ahead of its time, but in the terms of detection tecnolgy they were running before they could walk


Also you could consider the O-21 class, a boat from the netherlands, which had a schnorkel in 1936! (although it was only for fresh air, not for engine intake).
It was probably the best design of a sub, until maybe late VII marks.

Originally Posted by Dantenoc

but the whole U-boat war effort was pointless, nevermind what type of boat. There is no way that Britain could have been starved to death... ever. It just isn't possible.

They may have being starved so much as they had no oil, no food, no ammumition and they may have being forced to surrender. You know what churchill said ''the only thing that scared me was the U-Boat peril''

[johnno74]

I have read somewhere (forget where) that the XXI was originally meant to be powered by a closed-cycle engine that ran on hydrogen peroxide - it didn't need air to run. I think they never would have got that developed in time even if the program was given total priority, the challenges are too great - u-boats powered by hydrogen peroxide are just starting to become a reality now...

I also read that the german high command (maybe Hitler or Donitz, not sure) cancelled development of the XXI in about 1940, because they believed they were not needed, they could win the battle of the atlantic without them.
Originally they were meant to come into service about 1941.

Now if Nazi germany had had a buttload of XXIs in '41 I don't know if that would have changed the course of the war, but it certainly would have made he atlantic a MUCH more dangerous place and would have at a minimum prolonged the war a few more years.

[MENTAT]

Originally Posted by IrischKapitan

Yes the XXI was built in sections, but most of them by slave labour. Therefore they were badly manufactured, ill-fitting and when they got to port they were often missing equipment, which added to the lenght of time for them to become operational.

So did VII's nad IX's. and Panthers and Tigers. You didnt think all war machines were produced solely by germans do you? and all subs were produced in sections.

Oh by the way, failure in production often resulted death penalty to slave workers and dont you underestimate the work of a labor threatened by his life.

For the topic,

Yes XXI was a revolution, and it was a way too late revolution. Just like Me262, V2 and HX homing bombs. Could have they changed the course of the war? Definitely.

For upgrading existing boats, it was a no go. Why? Because XXI was a completely new design, truly a new concept. The boat was designed and given better stats for "underwater" performance raher than previous designs which were usually surfaced and temporarily submerged.. They were actually submersible ships rather than submarines.

So Aerodynamix (or should i say Aquadynamics) of XXI were all designed for submerged conditions. We are talking about the hull. And a hull of a sub is 60% of its structure. How were you going to upgrade a VII's 60%? is it feasible? No.

Besides you have to recall your existing force in atlantic to do that. And If you do, allied forces will begin to transfer vast amounts of airforces to assist land forces which were busy to search the entire atlantic for U-boats. When Hitler saw that technologically overwhelmed U-boats were hunted all over seas, he didnt put an end to atlantic operations, on the contrary he ordered Doenitz to keep sending them to keep allied airforces busy. You would have given freedom for all naval vessels as well and that would give allies to perform an amphibious operation wherever, whenever they want.

For bleeding Britain dry by U-boats, that was a true strategy, of course not to make them starve to death but for huge amounts of ammunition, weaponry and manpower supply from U.S. All of us know that how hard Britian was keeping up with the Battle of Britain, and using Britain as a steppingstone, U.S. forces have managed to deploy enough forces (over millions of people) to perform D-DAY eventually made Germany to surrender.

Now think about it, XXI was ready and entered service in late 42 or at the beginning of 43. Allied navy has recently using ASDICs in their DDs and XXI has schnorkel, anti sonar coats as well as sonar decoys, automated torpedo loading systems, most importantly, 17-18 knots submerged speed. Official max. depth is 285m. (Note that this is (225 - 247m for VIIs and they can often go beyond that) and 285 nm submerged range (Note: 80nm for VIIs) britain would be completely isolated and USA will not be able to participate effectively in Europe.

Only one XXI was performed active duty in the last days of war and even it was detected by a pack of latest technology DDs, it survived the war, as DDs were looking for a sub making 3kts, XXI got away with 9 knots in silent speed.

Let me remind that, XXI were all design templates for US and Soviet navies after the war. during cold war, All tango class, victor class, Los angles class nuclear subs are derived from its design concepts.

XXI could definitely changed the war, at least for sure with Britain and USA.

[GerritJ9]

The "O-21" entered service in early 1940, not 1936. Like the "O-19" class before it, the "O-21s" COULD use the snorkel to run the diesels while submerged- that was the whole point. When the "O-21s" arrived in Britain after the German invasion of Holland, the Royal Navy ordered the removal of the system because they considered it useless and too dangerous. (I would have told the RN to get stuffed!)
There is a photo of the "O-21" at periscope depth with periscopes and snorkel gear above the surface and clearly running the diesels, taken in early 1940 off Vlissingen during trials. Interestingly, the Dutch Navy first intended to install a prototype snorkel system in "O-8" (ex- RN "H-6") in the early 1930s and some sketches of the proposed installation have survived. The conversion was never carried out, however, most probably due to lack of funds.

[Puster Bill]

Originally Posted by Dantenoc

I'll get clobbered for saying this on this forum, but the whole U-boat war effort was pointless, nevermind what type of boat. There is no way that Britain could have been starved to death... ever. It just isn't possible.

Besides, Hitler was never betting on starving England out of existence, but rather the original plan was to make it suficiently uncomfortable for the British so that they would just sign a peace treaty where they would basicaly leave Hitler be and have his way on continental Europe. Hitler was betting that the British had only been allies of the French for a short while but enemies for ever (hey, how about that hundred years war?). Of course the whole deal is more complicated than that, but that was the general idea.

He just miscalculated the Churchill factor. I beleive Chamberlain would have signed for peace.

I'm not going to clobber you, but I am going to disagree with you. Had the Kriegsmarine had the requisite number of boats at the beginning of the war, it could have starved the UK into submission.

It very nearly did so in WWI, and in fact could have done so, had they stuck to the policy of unrestricted submarine warfare from 1915 on. They didn't due to fears that America would join forces with England, but even the sinking of the Lusitania didn't bring America into the war. It took a ham-fisted attempt by Germany to enlist Mexico's aid in case America declared war on Germany to bring the US into the war. Even then, American reaction to the Zimmermann telegram was ambivalent, until Zimmermann himself, in what must be the most stupidly honest thing a politician has ever uttered, admitted that it was in fact true, and not a provocation by Britain as many in the US believed.

There were some advances in anti-submarine technology and doctrine by 1939, including ASDIC and convoying, but those advances weren't necessarily a death-knell to the U-bootwaffe, as doctrinal changes between WWI and WWII (specifically, night surface attacks, and the concept of the 'wolfpack') largely nullified those.

With a large enough u-boat force in 1939, the Kriegsmarine could have effectively blockaded the British Isles. They didn't do too badly with the force they had: They reduced the imports into the British Isles to a large degree. The Royal Navy of 1939 and 1940 would not be able to cope with large numbers of u-boats surrounding the British Isles. It would have required them to pull just about all of their naval assets from around the World back into home waters, and that would have led to further advances by the Axis powers. As late as the Spring of 1943, Britain was chronically low on fuel reserves, and had they not been able through technological advances to turn the tide, would have been in dire straights indeed.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by johnno74

I have read somewhere (forget where) that the XXI was originally meant to be powered by a closed-cycle engine that ran on hydrogen peroxide - it didn't need air to run. I think they never would have got that developed in time even if the program was given total priority, the challenges are too great - u-boats powered by hydrogen peroxide are just starting to become a reality now...

I also read that the german high command (maybe Hitler or Donitz, not sure) cancelled development of the XXI in about 1940, because they believed they were not needed, they could win the battle of the atlantic without them.
Originally they were meant to come into service about 1941.

Now if Nazi germany had had a buttload of XXIs in '41 I don't know if that would have changed the course of the war, but it certainly would have made he atlantic a MUCH more dangerous place and would have at a minimum prolonged the war a few more years.

Correct and in fact the British and Russions experimented with using subs powered by modernised versions of the same chemical reaction technology but they didn't have a great deal of success. Germany has a new 212 boats using hydrogen fuel cells. These subs are even quieter than the vaunted Los Angeles class holes in the water.

[KeybdFlyer]

You might want to take a look at "Superiority" by Arthur C. Clarke too. Using-up time & resources to attain a technical lead over your enemy is not always the best course of action; 1000 "bog-standard" weapons can achieve better results than 100 highly advanced ones - by sheer weight of numbers.

[danurve]

Quite an interesting read this thread has become. It reminds me of why many of us enjoy the game and have a common interest in the time period.

I don't beleive the XXI was pointless, just to late.
I also belive the U-boat war was over by `43.
Goering was a Turd, not just to the KM but to the entire axis.

The KM for a multitude of reasons dicked the dog with what little resources they had. Sending boats all over & chewing up fuel instead of using them to blockade the UK. The late development of the XXI/XXIII was another blunder. This is going to sound like a slam on the IX players but it's not, so please don't take it that way - but, imo the type 9 was more pointless then the XXI. Had those resources been realocated.. ehh, moot point.

[Ubåtskapten]

Originally Posted by johnno74

I have read somewhere (forget where) that the XXI was originally meant to be powered by a closed-cycle engine that ran on hydrogen peroxide - it didn't need air to run. I think they never would have got that developed in time even if the program was given total priority, the challenges are too great - u-boats powered by hydrogen peroxide are just starting to become a reality now...

I also read that the german high command (maybe Hitler or Donitz, not sure) cancelled development of the XXI in about 1940, because they believed they were not needed, they could win the battle of the atlantic without them.
Originally they were meant to come into service about 1941.

Now if Nazi germany had had a buttload of XXIs in '41 I don't know if that would have changed the course of the war, but it certainly would have made he atlantic a MUCH more dangerous place and would have at a minimum prolonged the war a few more years.

Here are some links regarding the Walter boats, which were equipped with a hydrogen peroxide turbine to make the boat’s propulsion air independent. While combining this technology with streamlined design some test vessels engineered by Hellmuth Walter managed to reach a underwater top speed of over 23 knots. The XXI was actually a variant of the Walter-boat XVIII, which had similar design but was driven by the Walter turbine. The Kriegsmarine decided to use almost the same hull design as the XVIII but with a diesel engine and lots of batteries instead of the Walter turbine. Mainly I would say because of it's high costs and because of the risk with using this new and fairly untested technology, and of course the (at the time) lesser operational range compared to conventional diesels. Interestingly enough the Germans have today operational U-boats of the Type 212 class, which is driven by a modern AIP system with hydrogen fuel cells.

http://uboat.net/types/walter_hist.htm
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter-Antrieb
http://jtmcdaniel.com/walter_turbine.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

Regarding the XXI I believe it would have had an impact on the U-boat war if deployed as early as in 41" because of its, for the allies, “hopefully” unexpected capabilities with high speed silent running, launching torpedoes from greater depths and so forth. On the other hand one can understand that they saw no need for such an expensive boat at the time before 41 when the war was going fairly well for the Germans.

At least the XXI was a big milestone that set the mark for future streamlined submarine designs and technological improvements. And it clearly influenced the design of many allied subs developed after the war.