Hardcore playing and the chronometer

[U-Bones]

Originally Posted by OlegM

Of course, and no problem. I too still sometimes play with auto targetting.

BUT when I play hardcore I expect hardcore.

BTW I think the great flexibility of SH4 in adjustments that vary from catering to casual player to hardcore pro is one of the great strengths and selling points for this game

I agree with this. With a stable patch base it can have very wide appeal and a bright future.

Edit: Stable may be the wrong word, acceptable/workable/reasonable is what I was aiming for.

[Bilge_Rat]

I am of two minds on this issue as well.

Lack of a working chrono forced me to learn full manual targeting, and yes, it works quite well if you take your time, so it is not a game killer if it stays as is.

more casual gamers can use Auto TDC, if they don't want to be bothered.


Elanaiba, if the Dev team has to make some hard choices about a possible 1.3 patch, which I presume is part of the reason you are posting, then I would say the Radar and Convoy AI are more important to fix than the Chrono.

[U-Bones]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I am of two minds on this issue as well.

Lack of a working chrono forced me to learn full manual targeting, and yes, it works quite well if you take your time, so it is not a game killer if it stays as is.

more casual gamers can use Auto TDC, if they don't want to be bothered.


Elanaiba, if the Dev team has to make some hard choices about a possible 1.3 patch, which I presume is part of the reason you are posting, then I would say the Radar and Convoy AI are more important to fix than the Chrono.

Exactly why I offered alternate opinion on priorities. 100% agreed.

[Target]

I'm working around the stated problem. But in the real world the skipper didn't do all the work himself. IIRC there were three men in the attack team. Having a working Chronometer would simulate one member of that team. So in reality a working chronometer simulating a member of an attack team is closer to real life than not.

[daft]

Originally Posted by Target

I'm working around the stated problem. But in the real world the skipper didn't do all the work himself. IIRC there were three men in the attack team. Having a working Chronometer would simulate one member of that team. So in reality a working chronometer simulating a member of an attack team is closer to real life than not.

I agree. The chronometer would take some of the load off me, and that is just what I want. I don't need to be the whole crew, so a working chrono would be great. Having said that, if I have to choose I'd fix the AI-bug, radar and weird stadimeter bug first.

[GT182]

If it says it should work in the manual then it should be fixed to work whether or not you want to use it. And a some point in time you might want the chronometer working, and so it should be available.

Case in point, it's the same as with the headlights on my car. Or any of the lights on my car. I buy a car and they don't work then they must be fixed by the maker's representative so I can drive at night. Not ignored as the buyer has rights that must be dealt with by the maker of the auto.... a warranty was given and it must be upheld.

The EULA for SH4 says so too under #5 Warranty... that the buyer has the right that SH4 be free from defects for 90days. And fixing SH4 I believe falls under that warranty stated. Your defects will last longer than 90 days but still need to be fixed.

But too in #7 Liability it states that... and I quote it verbatum as printed out.

"In no event can UbiSoft be held responsible for any direct, consequential, accidental, special, ancillary or other damages arising out of the use or inability to use the multimedia product, as well as the out of the ownership or poor functioning thereof, even if UbiSoft has been advised of the possibility of such damages.
In particular, UbiSoft accepts no liability reguarding use of the Multimedia product contrary to the precautions for use set out in the manual and on the packaging.
As some legislations do not allow exemption from liability in the even of direct or incidental damages, it is possible that the aforementioned exculusion does not apply to the user.
This License to use the Multimedia product grants specific rights to the user and he may have other rights depending on the laws in his state."

These rights we do have and fixing SH4 so it works as said in the "UbiSoft SH4 Manual" is a part of those rights.

[Keelbuster]

Actually, it would have been nice to have your range updates drawn on the map, straight from the stadimeter, as if one of your officers plotted it for you. I'm fine to live without having the chronometer wired into the calculation of speed - i can do it myself over a larger number of readings. In SH3 I'd use the chronometer at the last minute, at close range, as a short-interval measure of speed that I could compare with the value I had calculated over my approach readings (long interval, large error, lots of averaging). This was not a 'magic' reading, as was implied by another member, but rather a computation from AoB and the change in bearing over a short interval. We do an equivalent calculation using the approach readings. But using the chrono (in sh3) allowed a short interval speed estimate (virtually impossible to plot using the sh3 plotting interface) that could confirm or correct the estimate that was derived on approach. Having the navigator draw the bearing lines with my stated range, and intervals of my choosing (i.e. at useful points along the chrono), would help reduce error induced by zooming/drawing on the nav map with finicky tools and I think it would better simulate the firing solution process. If we had that I could do quick and accurate short interval speed estimates without the chrono. I guess, in the end, the final check is done by eye - how fast is the brute moving when you're approximately 90AoB, and how flat is the smoke trail. I end up using these a lot in SH3.

But that's off the point, which is: we could live without the chrono if we had highly usable plotting tools or (realistically) semi-automated range plotting. And a nice flexible speed ruler.

SH4 was built around flashy graphics and arcade gameplay, and hence I've sortof given up on it ever satisfying as a nuts & bolts sim. The other posters are right in saying that the convoy AI and damage control blunders should be solved first - at least then it would be a working arcade game.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Target

I'm working around the stated problem. But in the real world the skipper didn't do all the work himself. IIRC there were three men in the attack team. Having a working Chronometer would simulate one member of that team. So in reality a working chronometer simulating a member of an attack team is closer to real life than not.

You are exactly right. This is what I posted on this issue a while back:

Too many people look at the chronomoter as a black & white issue, that is, as some sort of magic tool that doesn't exist in reality. Rather, the chronometer should be seen as an abstraction - when you've locked on to the target and started the timer, in essence you've called out the range and bearing to your plotting officer and are telling him to estimate the target's speed once you've stopped the timer. Seen that way, the chronomter isn't a "magic button" only suitable for less-realistic settings.

Having a working chronometer is a must-have fix for this game. It is as much of a valid option as is using other methods to calculate speed.

[MONOLITH]

Originally Posted by Dowly

You guys fail to remember that not everyone is a hardcore simmer.

Yep, you're right Dowly. Sorry, I wasn't trying to exclude anyone.

[JSF]

Originally Posted by MONOLITH

One of the biggest things we need around here, is to stop beating on each other. Please.

Post #22


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=114948&page=2

Word

[bruschi sauro]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I have something on my chest and wanted to open a civil discussion about it:

One of the issues posted all over the place about SH4 is the chronometer that doesn't calculate the target ships speed, while the manual says it should. True.

But that element is part of the hardcore sub gaming - the 100% manual crowd stuff. The manual targeting bit.

The manual targeting method of sh3 implied you got the speed of the target - with some error - by just pressing a button on the watch. There was no actual gameplay for the player there. No skill.

So why do you guys want it back? Are you actually using "manual targeting", doing the job that most captains did, or not? There is a checkbox that gets you auto targeting... but when you're manual, you do the work.

Hard? Yeah! But its an option...

Dan

P.S. You know the Position Keeper can be used to see whether you got the right speed for the target or not.

I have payed for one copy oF SH4 € 54,00 and the game not work well OK?
The manual show the chronometer as working! OK
while not working. OK The chronimeter mut work!
For you this game is a work well done?

[RocketDog]

1. The chronometer simulates the contributions of other members of the TDC team. It's not a magic button.

2. The interface doesn't really give us the proper tools to do a full manual targeting.

3. Not using the chronometer is really tough because the manual doesn't explain properly how to go about targeting in its absence. We have to trawl forums like this in order to find out techniques like the 3-minute rule.

Overall, I think it should either be in the game and working or not in the game at all. What is particularly exasperating was that it worked in SH3 - it's not even new feature.

Cheers,

RD.

[Argus00]

If it's in the manual, it should work. Period. Giving the player the option to actually use it or not is also a smart move.

However, I think that SH4 has other issues of a WAY greater magnitude on gameplay - for both the hardcore simmers and the casual arcaders - than a chronometer that's not working properly.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Argus00

If it's in the manual, it should work. Period. Giving the player the option to actually use it or not is also a smart move.

However, I think that SH4 has other issues of a WAY greater magnitude on gameplay - for both the hardcore simmers and the casual arcaders - than a chronometer that's not working properly.

You contradict yourself with that statement. How can you say, "If it's in the manual, it should work," and then right below say there are more important gameplay issues that need to be fixed??? A working chronometer as described in the manual is important for gameplay and isn't some magical cheat!

[OlegM]

Originally Posted by Argus00

If it's in the manual, it should work. Period.

LOL a twisted logic I think. Manual should follow the game not the other way round. If the manual is buggy, too shallow (and it is) and has some facts wrong (and it has) there's no need to make the GAME comply to crap in the manual.