This guy is as....

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

I think that's a good summary, but according to Sea Demon most American jews are ready to throw Israel under the bus : http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...l/jewvote.html
I didn't see any exit poll of jewish voters for this election yet but I'm sure the results are similar.
Damn these liberal cowards who don't care about their own security
Let's hope that political threads keep being that funny.

Mikhayl, don't be an idiot. I understand how difficult that may be for you. There is a very good reason for saying what I've said. Emanuel has shown to have a stake and interest in Israel when it suited political gains. That's what I've seen regarding his political career. He has done good work for Israel in deed (very commendable), yet has been silent when people in his party (in ideology) have done things that contradict Israeli security in general. I see that as putting ideology (or at least political party) before one of our Democratic allies security interests. I said nothing about Jewish voters not caring about Israel. And yes, when it comes to National Security issues, our liberals here just don't perform very well. It is what it is.

[AntEater]

Do they?
I'm an outsider, but from my opinion this largely comes from the fact that:
Democrats do not beat their chests in public as often.
From an outsider's view, Clinton did pretty much the same as Bush, with a much better public relations department. Clinton could get away with flattening a aspirin factory in Sudan with Tomahawks, after all...
The military is staunchly republican:
It alway amazed me how Clinton was blamed for the "Blackhawk down" fiasco while he basically gave the military a free hand while Reagan was not blamed for the Lebanon fiasco despite micromanaging both the troop deployment and the air raids from Washington.
Basically, if the dems screw up a war, its the administration, if the republicans do the same, it is tragic circumstances.
:rotfl:

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by AntEater

Do they?
I'm an outsider, but from my opinion this largely comes from the fact that:
Democrats do not beat their chests in public as often.
From an outsider's view, Clinton did pretty much the same as Bush, with a much better public relations department. Clinton could get away with flattening a aspirin factory in Sudan with Tomahawks, after all...
The military is staunchly republican:
It alway amazed me how Clinton was blamed for the "Blackhawk down" fiasco while he basically gave the military a free hand while Reagan was not blamed for the Lebanon fiasco despite micromanaging both the troop deployment and the air raids from Washington.
Basically, if the dems screw up a war, its the administration, if the republicans do the same, it is tragic circumstances.
:rotfl:

Yes. The Democrat Party was the one that invited members of the Chinese military to go to our Los Alamos and Sandia Labratories. The environment of the Clinto era also enabled some very sensitive space technologies to be passed directly and indirectly to PLA sources. Stuff like radiation hardened chips, improved rocket guidance systems (good for missile accuracy), militarized fiber optics technology, super-computers used for nuclear weapons designs, etc. Not only that but look at the actions Clinton waged. Absolute disaster from the aspects of military resource utilization. He wasted Precious Tomahawks on targets of little significance, made aircraft fly higher than they should have flown against Serb targets to prevent aircraft loss.....most likely for political reasons. He cut back the military iin the 90's to unnacceptable levels. I served in that military and remember the "doing more with less" stuff. I believe he did that as a means to help with obtaining a budget surplus. Absolutely dangerous to lives of people in uniform. Going back further, the Tip O'Neil Congress in the 80's was rather burdened by the very military programs that helped us keep the edge on the Soviet Union. Jimmy Carter as President was like a subservient dog in his dealings with General Secretary Brezhnev. And Jimmy Carter, like Clinton, cut vital programs but for other reasons. I believe part of it was that he thought he could temper Soviet aggression through a compassionate approach. Proved to be naive any way you look at it. And last but not least, liberal Dems during our time of war during the last few years have shown themselves to be totally attrocious people, and counter-productive to support of our troops in the field during that time of war. They obviously hate Bush (the C-in-C), but have done everything they could to destroy national unity and morale, to the detriment of securing a win and creating new conditions of peace. I don't care if they don't like the war. Nor do I care if they voice it. But the false charges, BS propaganda (Haditha Marines) (Comparing our troops to Nazis),threatening to defund troops in a time of war are not the acts of people who care about national security interests. They actually act counter to it. Need I go on?

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

First, don't call people on internet something you wouldn't dare call them in real life.
Second, both Palestinian and Israeli newspapers disagree with you on Emanuel.

Then perhaps you might not want to improperly attribute statements to me that I have not said. Secondly, I don't give any newspaper (Israeli - and especially Palestinian) too much clout. I am capable of forming an opinion independently of newspaper editorials based on my own observations. I'm sure US newspapers have a number of views regarding Mr. Emanuel.

[Thomen]

Well.. well.... well..

Emanuel, who was a senior adviser for former President Bill Clinton throughout the 1990s, was appointed to the board of Freddie Mac upon his departure from the Clinton administration.

http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...106133228.aspx

[Skybird]

point one on Obama's to-do-list:






And this one, a bit older, but also a good one:




:rotfl:

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Then perhaps you might not want to improperly attribute statements to me that I have not said. Secondly, I don't give any newspaper (Israeli - and especially Palestinian) too much clout. I am capable of forming an opinion independently of newspaper editorials based on my own observations. I'm sure US newspapers have a number of views regarding Mr. Emanuel.

Ok so you don't give any newspaper too much clout. How about a long time serving Republican in the form of Senator Lindsey Graham who has had many dealings with Mr Emanuel. This is the exact statement made by Senator Graham today:

"This is a wise choice by President-elect Obama.

"Rahm knows Capitol Hill and has great political skills. He can be a tough partisan but also understands the need to work together. He is well-suited for the position of White House Chief of Staff.

"I worked closely with him during the presidential debate negotiations which were completed in record time. When we hit a rough spot, he always looked for a path forward. I consider Rahm to be a friend and colleague. He's tough but fair. Honest, direct, and candid. These qualities will serve President-elect Obama well.

"Rahm understands the challenges facing our nation and will, consistent with the agenda set by President-elect Obama, work to find common ground where it exists. I look forward to working with him in his new position and will continue to do everything I can to help find a pathway forward on the difficult problems facing our nation."

Republican Senator Lindsey Graham seems to totally contradict much of what has been said against Rahm Emanuel here by Sea Demon and others. :hmm: His comments also seem to suggest that President Elect Obama has shown wise judgement with this decision.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Konovalov

Ok so you don't give any newspaper too much clout. How about a long time serving Republican in the form of Senator Lindsey Graham who has had many dealings with Mr Emanuel. This is the exact statement made by Senator Graham today:

Republican Senator Lindsey Graham seems to totally contradict much of what has been said against Rahm Emanuel here by Sea Demon and others. :hmm: His comments also seem to suggest that President Elect Obama has shown wise judgement with this decision.

Oh, so because I typically vote Republican, I have to agree with every opinion they make? At any rate, I don't see Senator Graham addressing his views here in relation to Emanuel's politics vs. Israeli security. Where is it? Not there, right? My own view of Emanuel comes from the fact that he's usually a big mouth who was largely silent when Clinton was inviting Arafat to the White House to discuss "regional security". We all know Israeli security certainly wasn't solidified by these talks. In fact more violence actually resulted for Israel. I have yet to see any statements from Emanuel condemning this approach. On the plus side, Rahm is a Clintonite....which means you can forget Obama taking the country extremely leftward. But nevertheless, he has shown me something that he follows the pattern of those who travel with the left in America. Ideology first.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

I'm sure that the people directly concerned by Israel's security care more about Sea Demon's opinion based on observations of who knows what than about Israeli & Palestinian papers reporting facts

Lord knows your own opinion is completely worthless to these people. I actually have a vote and say in American government.

It's no surprise you have no seeming appreciation for the ability to form opinion based on observation. It's apparent you wait for a newspaper to form one for you.

[AVGWarhawk]

Let call it a draw!

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

I was talking about the Israelis, stop being so full of yourself.

Anyway it highlights something I noted, republican hardliners most of the time think that they care more about Israel than anyone else in the universe. Had Obama picked Netanyahu they would still be moaning that democrats "don't care about security matters". Funny.

Israeli's do care who we put in the White House and the Congress. My vote does have an affect on their security. And I do support Israeli security. Has nothing to do with Party.

But how about you read people's comments, and try to comprehend what they're actually saying. Your pathetic attempt at mockery proves you bring nothing to the table. And your last paragraph shows me you have no clue into what Republican "hardliners" think "most of the time". I outlined specifically before many reasons Democrats have shown a particularly lackluster support for national security issues. And often show ideology as a primary concern. It's in actions and words. Seriously Mikhayl, it is you who have an inflated view of yourself. You have no idea what we believe over here. Like I told you in another thread, I was unimpressed with the average Frenchman's view of American politics when I was in Cannes. Some of these people thought they were up to speed on American politics because they saw Farenheit 9-11. No kidding. The so called new age "European Enlightenment" was not what I expected it to be. I was told by many newspapers that ignorance was largely an American trait. Then I went to Cannes and other parts of France and experienced it first hand. Your paragraphs above and your seeming hostility to independent thought are a caricature of what I heard there.

[AVGWarhawk]

Come on fellas, there is no way, shape or form we will change the world from a forum on the internet. Keep it cool

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

And I replied it's bollocks concerning Emanuel for a variety of reasons, so we'll have to disagree and leave it at that.

About Cannes, I don't know why you keep mentionning it, I live 800km from there and never been there, it's considered by most French as the most overrated city, only snubs go there for vacations. This city is well known for being populated by wealthy retired people, it's a city where the Front National ie the xenophobic far right makes some of its highest scores, so when you tell me you met uneducated hillbillies it's like telling me that fire burns. If you think Cannes is where you'll meet the "average Frenchman" (whatever that is) you're totally out of touch. Oh and since it seems to matter so much to you, I didn't see Fahrenheit and I couldn't be bothered. And yes the French "Lumieres" are long shut off, no news here either.

You have yet to show anything resembling a reason other than "newspapers don't agree". As though those sources have shown to be anything resembling integrity lately. And I went to several places in France, but Cannes is where I stayed for most of the time. I don't want to give the wrong impression though, I did meet some very nice French folks there who seemed bright. You do live in a beautiful country. But once a number of them started talking to me about American politics, that's where I saw some real ignorance on display.

And OK, we disagree on Emanuel. No problem there.

Edit: I agree with Mikhayl with his message to AVG. There! I found something to agree with you on. Have a good night Mikhayl.

[Sea Demon]

Well then Mikhayl, I'm not sure I made my point with you. I already said I know that there are newspapers with various views regarding Emanuel. I don't mind you posting those articles. I simply watched Emanuel during the Clinton administration when Clinton was selling out Israeli security for some proposed and very much hoped for "peace". Some of these proposals did not increase Israeli security and violence looked to be the end product. I have yet to see Emanuel as a rep. condemn these "proposals" even though they were not good for Israel. I have no doubt Emanuel has an affinity towards Israel. But his actions and lack of words on some of these events show me that he is first and foremost securing ideology against an allies security. Doesn't matter how many internet articles you post about the man. His actions and words (or lack thereof) are much greater indication of this. I don't need an opinion in a news article to tell me what opinion I should have of this guy.

I'm both worried about Israeli, and European security with this new administration in Washington. A little concern for our East Asian allies. Although I do believe Emanuel is a pretty tough guy. And I don't believe he wants Israel to be threatened. But like I said, he is more beholden to party and ideology by action and words. post a million articles. Wont change a thing. Only Emanuel through words and deeds can do that. Got it?

[Konovalov]

I was going to post the same material Mikhayl regarding Emanuel. We will see in 4 years time if Sea Demon's concerns were with or without foundation. My view from all that I can find on Emanuel, be it his actions, his comments, the views of some Republicans, and indeed his fathers views is that the last thing he is going to do is sell out Israel.

All this makes even more ridiculous the comments by Joe the plumber when he agreed with a Republican supporter who said "I guarantee ya, a vote for Obama is a vote for the death of Israel." Tragic pre-election scaremongering that didn't work. Even Shep Smith from Fox News challenged Samuel Wurzelbacher during a Fox News interview. It really was cringe worthy stuff from the plumber.