destroyer evasion and attack strategies

[Sailor Steve]

That's too bad, because clear back in SH1 the bathythermograph was nicely represented, and it came out mid-war.

[Peto]

yes. I remember watching that graph in SH--creeping deeper waiting to see the needle twitch and then slide over. And it could be at most any depth too--sometimes as far down as 500 feet. Sigh.

So... I'm cruising for targets last night and pick up a contact 13 miles out. I have all the time in the world to set up a Dick O'kane attack and my sub is sitting at all stop 650 yds from his track with silent running on just waiting for him to cross 200° so I can unlease a volley from the rear tubes. I am sitting at 70' as sonar tracks him and I move up to 50' and raise the scope with less than 10 seconds to go before firing. Just before he is going to cross my sights his floodlight comes on and he cranks it up. This was 1-2 seconds before I fired. I walk my 3 shots down the destroyers side but I miss astern with all 3 fish. I go deep(250') and turn as he bears in on me. I present a narrow aspect to him (that probably doesn't matter under this particular scenario) and turn 90° to him when I see from his sonar track that he is going to cross my track. There is no sound of DCs coming but then I get creamed with massive damage and its all over. It seems to me that I always hear the DCs being dropped, but not this time. This was a lone destroyer I feel this was an unrealistic outcome. He didn't ping me until after I fired. How did he know I was there? I was stopped, with silent running on and sitting at 70'. Dazed and confused at the bottom of the pacific, Urge

[Peto]

What mods are you using Urge? Weather conditions? I try to stay a bit outside of 1000 for DDs personally--just to have a little more safety net... And (this is just my personal preference) I never hover while submerged but always maintain at least 3/4 knot.

Also--you mention rising to P depth as he approaches. I've heard other complain about being picked while they come up to P-Depth, basically using the same tactic you used. It makes me wonder if there is something in the game code we don't know about (yet)--that being escorts are able to hear depth changes...:hmm:

(If you're using TMO, being detected in the manner you speak of is not uncommon).

Cheers!

Peto

[gAiNiAc]

First and foremost...........

TMO's destroyers are not all that uber-badass.........I avoid them with regularity, I evade them with regularity as well. It takes a wee bit of active persistence.

Second..AMBUSH. Strike fast, and strike hard. Do not get spotted.

Keep your periscope exposure to a minimum, 3 - 4 seconds....like in RL.

Fire, dive, and maneuver.

You have a flank bell for a very good reason. Use it to get as far away from your firing position as fast you can before the escorts can triangulate your position.

If you do this religiously you won't have to evade that hard.

Evasion: (You just had to go back for seconds!!!)

Things get interesting with 3+ destroyers.

Lets say you hung around and they localized you..........

You want to be deep, because deep = reaction time, it takes ash-cans a long time to get to 450+ feet.

Shallow is bad, frankly if you're brazenly stupid (like me )enough to go after a well escorted convoy in shallow waters you're going to need to just duke it out, or do like I do fire from longer range at night on the surface, those 19 knots come in handy then!

Bad weather is your friend.

Back to evasion.

Be deep.

Always have some torpedoes at least 2.

You want to be moving at 3 knots..........I know that's not "silent running" but when they are pinging you silent running is useless.

You need to figure out who is setting up for a run. When you here them commit (high speed, coming overhead) you want to punch up to a full bell. This action should occur about 2 - 4 seconds prior to the drop.

You see once they've committed they already have a drop point and it's too late. The idea is not to be at the drop point when the ash-cans arrive. Sounds simple........

When the first one pops drop back to a slower speed and change your direction 20 - 30 degrees, this isn't a random decision either. You want to work yourself continuously away from proximity of what's being escorted. They HAVE to go back to the herd.

The part I can't teach you is how to figure out when they really have a fix or they're bluffing you. It has to do with the confidence and frequency of their attacks. If you know they're not onto you then keep a low profile.........

Low profile means keep your cross section small and don't flinch.

With the above tactics worst comes to worse is that you'll be actively avoiding their drops until they recall back to their charge.

Now, every once in a while you'll get an especially nasty and tenacious bunch. That's why you have some spare torpedoes. If they're really making hell for you you want to pop at least one of them. Usually that's the guy whose listening for me. You want to get him from inside 600 yds...preferably broadside. Squeeze a fish at his middle to get him up and running then pop him in the bow. If your lucky you'll nail him with both. This usually screws them up enough to give you an envelope of escape.

You'll learn via experience when you've lost them.

[Peto]

Very Nice summation gAiNiAc!

[gAiNiAc]

Originally Posted by Peto

Also--you mention rising to P depth as he approaches. I've heard other complain about being picked while they come up to P-Depth, basically using the same tactic you used. It makes me wonder if there is something in the game code we don't know about (yet)--that being escorts are able to hear depth changes...:hmm:

(If you're using TMO, being detected in the manner you speak of is not uncommon).

Cheers!

Peto

You need to be outside the destroyers detection cone in order to depth change to above the thermal layer without being heard. Personally I wait until he passes and I'm abeam of him before I think about any depth change.........

Now if this is the lead escort you want to keep your bow on him so the idea is to turn with him as he's passing, the plus being you're keeping a low sonar cross section and when he passes you halt your turn perpendicular to the target course!

[gAiNiAc]

Originally Posted by Peto

Very Nice summation gAiNiAc!

Thanks PETO!

I'm waiting for the next version of RFB to try your destroyers out!

[gAiNiAc]

Originally Posted by Peto

If I'm at P-Depth and he knows where I am--X marks the spot. There's little time for evasion and his dc's will be going off before I can get past 100 feet. Excellent prospects for a postumous Purple Heart.

I go Deep and try not to give him a chance to drop his dc's down the length of my boat. I'd rather have him cross me at right angles when he drops because I can use speed to evade his rack charges and a hard rudder manuever to swing my stern away from the K-Guns.

I have fun .

Peto

Yes, good stuff here, the stern kick out is an essential maneuver.......

I am running TMO and it's the only mod I'm running that would be making any difference. I came up to periscope depth still at all stop so I wasn't making any engine noise. I think I have a pretty good handle on when they really have me. I hear the difference in the pinging as they get ready to make a run(lots of experience here-most of them bad in TMO). Does TMO sometimes have them make attack runs without you hearing the sound of the DCs being launched? I am in a Salmon class boat and I have been going down to 250' (the red line) I guess I could/should be exceeding test depth by what - I think its like 25% or so? Urge

Originally Posted by Urge

I am running TMO and it's the only mod I'm running that would be making any difference. I came up to periscope depth still at all stop so I wasn't making any engine noise. I think I have a pretty good handle on when they really have me. I hear the difference in the pinging as they get ready to make a run(lots of experience here-most of them bad in TMO). Does TMO sometimes have them make attack runs without you hearing the sound of the DCs being launched? I am in a Salmon class boat and I have been going down to 250' (the red line) I guess I could/should be exceeding test depth by what - I think its like 25% or so? Urge

the thought behind TMO in my opinion is its guided by the idea that the stock game is just way too easy and they decided to make the game very hard so it is very challenging. because of this the enemy sensors are a lot better than they should be if you were to limit it to realistic levels. this is enhanced to be even more of a challenge because of the fact that the game "cheats". it sends destroyers right to your exact position no matter what you do even if you dont move or make a sound. i swear the way they act in the game they would have to have have satelite gps tracking and magnetic field technology lol.

unfortunately all you can do is use your best evasive technics and remember that sometimes the game just cheats and its not that you did anything wrong.

[Peto]

Originally Posted by Urge

I am running TMO and it's the only mod I'm running that would be making any difference. I came up to periscope depth still at all stop so I wasn't making any engine noise. I think I have a pretty good handle on when they really have me. I hear the difference in the pinging as they get ready to make a run(lots of experience here-most of them bad in TMO). Does TMO sometimes have them make attack runs without you hearing the sound of the DCs being launched? I am in a Salmon class boat and I have been going down to 250' (the red line) I guess I could/should be exceeding test depth by what - I think its like 25% or so? Urge

Yep--TMO has pretty beefy sensors . I agree with what others have said--it is not invincible--but it is very dangerous to get that close to escorts in TMO. Have you tried RFB? It's possible that it will fit your playing style better...

As far as indications of when DC's are dropped--I actually don't have any sound for that at all. I know when they're dropped by watching my crew. They'll shift their position (kind of a butt-clench thing :hmm: ) and I've found that it's the most reliable warning I have for dc's being dropped.

You can go deeper in your Salmon. Not sure how much deeper in TMO though as I haven't used it for a while. Knowing Ducimus though, I'd expect you could go to 350' at least.

The next version of RFB will include new sub characteristics including an excellent new damage model Observer has created. Very Good Stuff!

Anyway--just thought I'd tag this on to what Webster said. Hope it helps!

[Vacquero]

I'm using TMO as well, and sometimes I think that the damn destroyers can see my little icon on top of the water. Albeit I can genearlly give em the slip, but sometimes it seems they no exactly where I am, which way I'm facing, and how fast I'm going.

Originally Posted by Vacquero

I'm using TMO as well, and sometimes I think that the damn destroyers can see my little icon on top of the water. Albeit I can genearlly give em the slip, but sometimes it seems they no exactly where I am, which way I'm facing, and how fast I'm going.

that is not your imagination, its the hard coded cheat factor the game has, i think the purpose of it is so it can be sure you have action. if you spent most of your time always undetected as it were, it would feel too easy.

[gAiNiAc]

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

that is not your imagination, its the hard coded cheat factor the game has.

How do you know??

Is that documented somewhere?