Tough laws on illegal aliens seem to be working

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Be careful what you ask for. You might want to read Alexis de Tocqueville's writings "Democracy in America" and what he calls Tyranny of the Majority.

Take a moment to imagine how dumb the average American is concerning government and policy. Then consider that almost 1/2 of the population is not that smart.

A popular vote can be a dangerous thing if the populace is uneducated about issues affecting policy.

Take a contemporary issue: Off shore Oil drilling

According to some polls the majority of the people want off shore drilling. But how many of these citizens really understand the oil industry, economy, and how one affects the other? I don't think that too many of the citizens who are in favour of off shore oil drilling have the slightest clue about the industry and what is involved in starting up a new rig.

As for economy, most people have a hard time balancing their check book.

You mention post Keynesianism or Thermoeconomics to the average American citizen and you will get the "glazed doughnut" look before they run away.

So why would I even care if a majority of uneducated, inexperienced, unaccountable people want off shore oil drilling?

I want to know what engineers, economists, environmentalists, and policy experts have to say about off shore oil drilling. There is a reason we have specialists. They know more about some stuff than the masses.

There is a reason why there are so few democracies in the world and how many representative governments flourish.

So, then should we rule out all elections because half the populace is stupid?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Frame57

So, then should we rule out all elections because half the populace is stupid?

Not at all. I think we should elect representatives and empower them to make these decisions for us. We should be very careful in who we elect as our representative though. We need to start holding these representatives directly accountable for their decisions. There needs to be a reasonable "checks and balance" process and an independent review of all policies to make sure they are fair and reasonable.

But nah, my whacky idea probably would never catch on.

[Frame57]

We do elect officials who are 'supposed' to make decisions for us. This is why congress has an all time low approval rating. We vote on propositions and sometimes the 'court' over rules the people's will. We should take the court or rather the judges and keelhaul them, when they do these things. Certain issues I suppose could not be thrust upon the people. Our economy with the NAFTA disaster is one that should have been voted on. How many people do you think would have "yes" to having their jobs exported?

[Platapus]

Depends on how each side spun the propaganda.

Concerning NAFTA and other international trade agreements it is important to understand what the goal is.

1. A more favourable trade environment solely for the United States
2. A more equal trade environment for all the signatories.

It should be clear that the two are not even remotely the same.

The very concept of free trade means that some will win and some will lose. It is great when free trade operates in your favour. It sucks when it does not. But for every loser there is a winner or winners.

People need to understand that the United States won't always be the winner in such agreements.

So if the objective is that the environment should be favourable solely to the United States then the last thing we want is any type of free trade agreement. We want a restricted trade agreement with tariffs and other such controls.

Of course getting another country to sign such a one sided trade agreement these days might be a bit tough.

NAFTA was never intended to be solely good for the United States.

Just to give you an example of how public opinion can be illogical. Consider this

"Despite their support for NAFTA, the publics in Canada and Mexico have tended to see their own country as the loser in NAFTA, and to see the United States, their largest trading partner, as the winner, while the U.S. public has viewed Mexico as the winner and has been narrowly divided about whether the United States is a winner or loser in NAFTA."
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...nt=161&lb=brla

Canadian citizens think that Canada is losing and the US is winning in NAFTA
Mexican citizens think that Mexico is losing and the US is winning in NAFTA
American citizens think that the US is losing and that Mexico and Canada are winning in NAFTA.

An interesting state to be in. Logically I would imagine that all three cancel each other out and that all three countries are equally hurt and benefited from NAFTA.

Like in any capitalistic system. What is good for the consumers may often be bad for the producers. Our citizen consumers benefit from NAFTA while our citizen producers don't.

How important is this is dependent on whether you are a consumer or a producer.

If you are a consumer and you have strong feelings against free trade, then use your discretion incumbent as a consumer and only buy products made in the USA.

You will pay more and may not have the quality or the selection, but that is the risk you take if you are against free trade. In essence, vote for or against NAFTA with your wallet. If enough citizens do not support NAFTA through their buying habits then NAFTA will start to fail.

The power rests with the consumer. Don't blame the government if you are buying stuff made in Canada or Mexico just because it is cheaper.

[Frame57]

I agree to an extent. I do purchase strictly made in the USA when I can. It is becoming more and more difficult to do so. I have noticed that a lot of electronic PCB componants are now made in Mexico. But the circuit boards have not been reduced in price for the consumer. My 20 dollar jeans that have always been about that price, are now made in Indonesia. Have the cost of the jeans gone down? No! The Automobile industry simply wanted to move plants across the border to keep their profit margin even higher. I do not think the people of Michigan would think for a minute NAFTA is working, nor is it a matter of spin doctors at work. Our Government needs to give employers a tax break and not a hinderance to motivate them to export American Jobs. These are self evident. our Government is supposed to run by the people and for the people. Today it is anything but that, and their conduct has border lined on high treason. The people will wake up someday and maybe have another American revolution.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Check this article:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ghbor0730.html

-S

"It used to be a mostly Hispanic community. Now I have all kinds of different families," she said.

Funny how that goes...I grew up in this neighborhood right next to the park and 25years ago it was mostly a normal neighborhood....until illegals swarmed to Mesa....Sherriff Joe does a fine job keeping people on they're toes...It was never a Latino neighborhood....amazing.