SSK Hunting

[SandyCaesar]

All right. Lots of nice advice here, thanks a lot.

So, in an aircraft it boils down to getting lucky with methodically placed active buoy fields supplemented with MAD. I don't have enough GRAMs to keep track of all the buoys, but I suppose the computer the can do that?

It's the frigate that worries me. Once again, it boils down to its active sonar, right? That, and its MH-60. The thing is, there are several cases where I could hear the echo off a submarine, but not see it on the screen. My guess is that it's either far away or at an unfavorable aspect. In either case, all I know is that there's a sub out there somewhere--I can't tag what doesn't show up on the screen, and the helo can't prosecute what I don't tell him. But the idea of running around like a torchbearer, pinging madly, screaming the equivalent of "Here I am! Torpedo me!" has never really appealed to me. The SSK--if it doesn't send a USET-80 or a 53-65K down my throat--would either steer around me or duck beneath a layer.

Case in point: "Holddown Exercise" from Bill Nichols' Red Storm Rising campaign. I performed marginally against the Foxtrots, but at least once I've gotten a general direction I have a helo to help. Against that Kilo: I don't know anything about him, so there was no way I could've chased him. It's frustrating having to run in circles looking for a ghost while the captain of said ghost is probably laughing his head off and polishing his TMA solution at me.

Maybe I could track in on his laughter, if nothing else.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by SandyCaesar

All right. Lots of nice advice here, thanks a lot.

So, in an aircraft it boils down to getting lucky with methodically placed active buoy fields supplemented with MAD. I don't have enough GRAMs to keep track of all the buoys, but I suppose the computer the can do that?

Buoys that have detected something show up with red dots on the map. (in propper DW-terminology "they went HOT") To see those red dots they do not have to be selected in a gram. IE, in one of those P3 training missions I droped dozens of buoys to make 2 fine-mazed large grids. Only when I found a red dot did I pull them up into a gram and investigate further.

As for FFG active sonar. You can use the single beam mode to determine the general bearing of your 'invisible'-ping. Then perhaps send a helo along that bearing doing MAD searches. Or maneuvering around the contact along a max range circle to try to get a better aspect on it. But he's probably going to change course quicker than you getting a better angle on him by proceding 90 degrees along the circle. But atleast it provides a search datum for your helo, where the old and new bearing cross. Unfortunately we can't draw lines on the map.

p.s. You can determine the general distance as well, listen for WHEN the ping comes, and place the marker there in the updated return noise to read distance. Hmm... Then a circle on the map for that distance, and 2 markers for the 20 degree beam (or was it 10? anyway, remember single beam mode works bow-relative instead of true bearing), and you almost have him pinned down.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by SandyCaesar

All right. Lots of nice advice here, thanks a lot.

So, in an aircraft it boils down to getting lucky with methodically placed active buoy fields supplemented with MAD. I don't have enough GRAMs to keep track of all the buoys, but I suppose the computer the can do that?

Eh, luck only is a major factor if your buoys are spread out too much. It's more about being realistic about how much area you can search/secure given your target class, target speed, and the acoustic conditions. The smart money is always on the P-3 in a DW scenario (unless the pilot forgets the range of hostile SAM systems in the area..cough, Oneshot, cough cough) so you're not the one in need of luck.

It's the frigate that worries me. Once again, it boils down to its active sonar, right? That, and its MH-60. The thing is, there are several cases where I could hear the echo off a submarine, but not see it on the screen. My guess is that it's either far away or at an unfavorable aspect. In either case, all I know is that there's a sub out there somewhere--I can't tag what doesn't show up on the screen, and the helo can't prosecute what I don't tell him.

Even if you haven't been able to tag him, the audio report tells you the range. You'll be able to tag him pretty quickly knowing that, and even if you don't, working the helo around that range will result in a dipping contact from a side aspect if he's bow aspect to you.

But the idea of running around like a torchbearer, pinging madly, screaming the equivalent of "Here I am! Torpedo me!" has never really appealed to me. The SSK--if it doesn't send a USET-80 or a 53-65K down my throat--would either steer around me or duck beneath a layer.

The SSK is going to detect you and/or the ships you're protecting on passive sonar long before you hear him. You have nothing to lose by going active.

Case in point: "Holddown Exercise" from Bill Nichols' Red Storm Rising campaign. I performed marginally against the Foxtrots, but at least once I've gotten a general direction I have a helo to help. Against that Kilo: I don't know anything about him, so there was no way I could've chased him. It's frustrating having to run in circles looking for a ghost while the captain of said ghost is probably laughing his head off and polishing his TMA solution at me.

Maybe I could track in on his laughter, if nothing else.

The RSR campaign is made for stock DW. Holddown Exercise is essentially scripted so that you detect the sub at mission start; but if you're using LWAMI and it's different detection ranges, the mission may not work as intended.

[Dr.Sid]

The fact you can hear the return but not see it is known bug and it applies on all active sonars in game. You simple never hear weaker return, it's always at 100%, or nothing (which means cross-layer or out of the range).

SeaQeuan: Bistatics (if it means different position for hydrophone and 'ping' source) are intended to be working in my sim. Generaly I plan it roughly like this: Pinger generates sound event .. it travels through the water and at some time it hits a target. Then reflected sound is generated on the target as new sound event, which travels using the same algorithm (except with different parameteres based on frequency and so on). Then this 'return' can be detected by anyone else who is is equiped so.

Even normal active sonar will work like this, except it will have the time reference so it will be able to get the range from the total delay.

Any advice is welcome. But if possible let's move to CADC (in my signature).

I'm planing to make sonar soon, even if the first version will be quite simple concerning TL calculation.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

SeaQueen: Bistatics (if it means different position for hydrophone and 'ping' source) are intended to be working in my sim. Generaly I plan it roughly like this: Pinger generates sound event .. it travels through the water and at some time it hits a target. Then reflected sound is generated on the target as new sound event, which travels using the same algorithm (except with different parameteres based on frequency and so on). Then this 'return' can be detected by anyone else who is is equiped so.

Interesting. That could end up resulting in a lot of interesting technical problems, like mutual interference and what not. That's not necessarily a bad thing, provided the simulation also has the ability to cope with various remedies for them. This means you're most likely going to get into some pretty serious signal processing geekyness.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Any advice is welcome. But if possible let's move to CADC (in my signature).

I'm planing to make sonar soon, even if the first version will be quite simple concerning TL calculation.

OT but...

Methinks in a year or two you'll have a pretty rocking SubSim Dr. Sid.

PD

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Eh, luck only is a major factor if your buoys are spread out too much. It's more about being realistic about how much area you can search/secure given your target class, target speed, and the acoustic conditions. The smart money is always on the P-3 in a DW scenario (unless the pilot forgets the range of hostile SAM systems in the area..cough, Oneshot, cough cough) so you're not the one in need of luck.

About the SAM issue.
You're correct in saying that careless air units (p-3 or mh-60r) are extremely succeptible to SAM attacks. But sub drivers forget that to launch SAMS you have to breach the surface, and at that moment they are vulnerable to the frigates cannon. And believe me, 2-3 shots are all that is needed to sink a sub.
A manned frigate plus 2 manned mh-60h and or/p-3 can make a sub drivers life very miserable. :p

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by goldorak

About the SAM issue.
You're correct in saying that careless air units (p-3 or mh-60r) are extremely succeptible to SAM attacks. But sub drivers forget that to launch SAMS you have to breach the surface, and at that moment they are vulnerable to the frigates cannon. And believe me, 2-3 shots are all that is needed to sink a sub.
A manned frigate plus 2 manned mh-60h and or/p-3 can make a sub drivers life very miserable. :p

Oh yeah, no doubt there. An FFG or MH60 could easily wait with their fingers on the trigger to keep a sub from coming up... But the SAM systems I meant were those attached to surface ships. I wouldn't necessarily describe being in range of a sub's MANPADS as being careless. Risky or reckless, perhaps, but not careless.