This is Interesting

[Frame57]

I agree with our public ed being in the toilet. But I have been out of the US Sub Force 1992. I can only hope the standards have not been lowered. I have heard the Boot camps now are easier and the DI's have to be "nice" or some crap like that. Since Rickover is not around I wonder if nuclear power training is as tough as it used to be. They used to have a considerable drop out rate because of the intensity of the training.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Originally Posted by Frame57

I agree with our public ed being in the toilet. But I have been out of the US Sub Force 1992. I can only hope the standards have not been lowered. I have heard the Boot camps now are easier and the DI's have to be "nice" or some crap like that. Since Rickover is not around I wonder if nuclear power training is as tough as it used to be. They used to have a considerable drop out rate because of the intensity of the training.

You got out on '92 as well eh?

I have had the (dis)pleasure of meeting some of the current baby nukes. They scare me. They really do.

Let me remininsce here:

I knew that my brethen had gone thru hell like I did. There was no free rides. There was not 'easy time'. I remember the stress of the final exam in nuke school in Orlando. I about passed out when I saw that I had made it.

When I met other nukes (even the ones that had not be in class with me) I KNEW that they had a basic level of knowledge in order to make it to the fleet.

Remember, the nuke program was a FILTER and not a pump back then. They did not pump out nukes, they filtered them. If you did not make the cut in the acedemics or the STRESS management then you failed. You went to fleet as a normal rate.

I met some baby nukes when I lived in Florida. Pensacola is a BIG navy town and a lot of the kids come home to see their retired parents between schools or on the way to their first commands. I had a job that put me in contact with quite a few of them. I got to 'talk shop' with them on more than a few occasions and noticed that the level of knowledge was dropping rapidly.

Things that I KNEW I had a basic handle on was way outside of their level of knowledge. It seemed to me that the program had gone from one of engineering training then backfilling in the required naval knowledge to one that seemd more reactionary and screen reading.

It was always a trait of a nuke in the old days that they could 'nuke out' anything. If you gave them a tech manual and a basic diagram, they could figure out how it works and what it was supposed to do in the first place. I have NEVER seen a 100K GPD flash type evap (fresh water maker), but I could explain the principles of operation and the underlying physics and thermodynamics that were behind it.

Modern nukes?? They know the basics of how the plants work, but if you ask them the 'nuts and bolt' they look at you with a blank stare. Talk about a dropped rod and how it changes the flux in the core and they say that the book has the answer. Ask them WHY the book tells them that and they just mumble back some BS answer. ANY nuke from my era (late 80's) could talk your EAR off about what happens and WHY. It did not matter what plant you studied, you understood the engineering and science behind it. If you came up against something you had not seen before, you could 'nuke it out' and come out with a good baseline.

This is not something you learn in the fleet. This is knowledge you went to the fleet WITH. This was WHY the fleet in general LOVED 'nuke waste', even 'waste' was pretty damn smart.

I am saddened to say that I started to see them general 'dumbing down' when my old CO became NAVSEA08 I.E. Naval Ractors. Since his tenure, I have seem the program go from a filter to a pump. The goal now seems to be how many nukes they can send to the fleet and who gives a care if they know what is really going on.

Back when I went though the program, my class had a 68% drop rate. That is from the beginning of A school till the end of Prototype. Thats right almost 7 in 10 got dropped. Some for academics, some for drinking, some for stupidity. I remember reading somewhere that in 2007 the drop rate was less than 10% and they wanted it lower. They were saying that 'better screening' and 'better training' were the causes for the lower drop rate.

I'm sorry to say, but, the 'top of his class' (I saw his award certificate btw) baby nuke MM that I met 3 years ago freaking SCARED me. I tried talking pump laws and basic steam cycle with him and he as as dumb as a box of hammers. This is when I started my own informal testing of any and all baby nukes I could find. This is when I found out that they teach more reactionary training. It has become 'if this happens, do the following procedure' type mentality. They do not seem to undertand the HOW and WHY they are doing things. Don't get me wrong, a valve is a valve, a switch is a switch, but they don't seem to have the underlying engineering training that we had. They taught us the HOW and the WHY instead of the 'cause and effect' training that they have now.

I can actually see one thing that this shifting in training will benefit for the navy. Back in my day, we repected officers becausee of their rank. The level of knowledge was not an issue between us. More then once, I have seen one of my brethern tell a officer that the only diffrence between them adn us was rank. We were not afraid to tell an officer that our level of knowledge was the same or BETTER then theirs. There was a respect in BOTH directions.

By dumbing down the enlisted nukes, they are creating a greater difference between the officers and enlisted. Now you will have officers who are truly 'smarter' and more knowledgable than the enlisted. This would have the effect of creating the 'stratification' that the military is looking for. They do not like having enlisted that can stand toe to toe with the officer ranks on the knowledge and education standard. It was difficult in my time when you have an officer who was 2 or 3 years older then you trying to tell you your job. ESPECIALLY when you know he was wrong.

Before you say I am bashing officers, my father was an Naval Aviator and we discussed this many times while we were BOTH active duty. We both discussed how the Navy wanted 'smart and educated' enlisted people as long as they knew their place. It made for many interesting times when he invited me to the O-Club for a drink.

Enough ranting for now.. I have to get back into the grove. I have been out of DW to long.

[Frame57]

Interesting obs BN. You may indeed be right. Everything is so cut and paste these days. My current Boss is a former Nuke Bubblehead and we often chat about this stuff and we are pretty much in agreement too. We work on medical life support equipment now. I had to get my electronics degree after my military career in order to work on medical equipment. we had to learn a lot of theory in electronics and had to be able to troubleshoot down to componant level on PCB's. But today that is pretty much gone in a lot of the electronics programs that are available at the community college level. Now when a board fries, you just replace the board. No more hooking up a DMM or O-scope. Those days are gone, so it seems that the level of knowledge does not have to be there as well. By the way my electronics professor was a Bubblehead too. He served on the diesel boats in the 1950's. He even made us learn tube theory. That guy knew his math every which way and then some. Me, if I do not use I lose it it seems. I have always admired peope who can take stuf like pre-calculus algebra and actually remember it. The Engineer on the A-fish was Tony Watkins and I still think he was the most intelligent human being I ever met. I envied the nukes and we A-ganger worked well with them even though we were called "Coners" once in awhile. But one thing we shared with our shipmates aft of frame 57 was our lack of liberty. I swear if I could do it all over again, I would strike a rate that got liberty as soon as the brow went over. Any one got a time machine handy?

[Dr.Sid]

It's the computers. People can invest their technical talents somewhere else. Also army in general may be less popular.

[goldorak]

While we are on the subject, does anyone know what Explosive Echo Ranging is ?
And if yes, is it still a tactic used nowadays in asw?
A person I play DW with is trying to convince me that EER is a sound tactic to hunt a submarine but I fail to see exactly why.
What can EER achieve that a field of passive/active sonobuoys + p-3 can't achieve ? :hmm:

[Pisces]

Ehm, how much of this topic still has to do with reliability (or lack thereof) of the real-live TB-29?

[Frame57]

It would be great if some ST's could weigh in on the subject. I do not think this would be an issue of the crew's being insufficiently trained. It seems as though the navy bought a piece of dog dooky that works well in theory but has some bugs or inherant design flaws in it.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Pisces

Ehm, how much of this topic still has to do with reliability (or lack thereof) of the real-live TB-29?

None. I was opined and now I'm being punished for it.

[Rip]

Originally Posted by Frame57

Interesting obs BN. You may indeed be right. Everything is so cut and paste these days. My current Boss is a former Nuke Bubblehead and we often chat about this stuff and we are pretty much in agreement too. We work on medical life support equipment now. I had to get my electronics degree after my military career in order to work on medical equipment. we had to learn a lot of theory in electronics and had to be able to troubleshoot down to componant level on PCB's. But today that is pretty much gone in a lot of the electronics programs that are available at the community college level. Now when a board fries, you just replace the board. No more hooking up a DMM or O-scope. Those days are gone, so it seems that the level of knowledge does not have to be there as well. By the way my electronics professor was a Bubblehead too. He served on the diesel boats in the 1950's. He even made us learn tube theory. That guy knew his math every which way and then some. Me, if I do not use I lose it it seems. I have always admired peope who can take stuf like pre-calculus algebra and actually remember it. The Engineer on the A-fish was Tony Watkins and I still think he was the most intelligent human being I ever met. I envied the nukes and we A-ganger worked well with them even though we were called "Coners" once in awhile. But one thing we shared with our shipmates aft of frame 57 was our lack of liberty. I swear if I could do it all over again, I would strike a rate that got liberty as soon as the brow went over. Any one got a time machine handy?

Keep your crap running and clean knucledragger and you can ve the first guy over the brow as well. Well second we know the data systems guy is always first. :rotfl:

But seriously. I feel for you. Nuke stuff fascinated me but I joined unrated. I don't think it is even possible to strike a nuclear rating. I had to craw through glass practically to become an ET. In the end I had qualified all of their watchstations and been in for more than two yearswhen I managed to get to Orlando for BE&E. They played the game to send me TAD by making my orders show me returning between that and EW A school in Pensacola. I may have been the very first submariner to go there. I loved it and I think get much more out of it than I would have going to the Great Lakes since I was standing ESM watch most of the time. I think it would be the better school no matter since the other major watchstation for ETs was Inertial Navigation which wasn't a major forus of ET A school anyway.

From a gaming standpoint the best thing about my time in was being in the fire control party. I worked the plot and eventually became geoplot coordinator. It has been immensly valualble doing TMA but also in giving me a very good familiarity with the other areas. I also am grateful I spent a lot of time in/with sonar as that would have been my second rating choice. I actaully fit in better there as I am kind of a hippy/wild guy. The ETs were a little more straight/clean/geeky.

Anyway, I guess I can quit running off the mouth now. You guys just got me thinking back with your experiences

[Frame57]

Agree whole-heartedly RIP! You are right on. You cannot strike for nuke. I was in the "Subfarer" program which meant I basically got Sub school and then went right to a boat. The ST's and FT's had a full deck, but A-Div was shy three men, so that is where i landed. It was OK. The CAMS and O2 Genny were fun to work on, the rest was hydraulic or pneumatic repairs and maintenance. The only payback we had was when we gave non-quals one hell of a check out on the Trim and Drain, Steering and Diving and HMV systems. One favorite question was, "You are a molecule of sea water, explain how you become O2 in the boat. It covers a lot of systems to answer that one correctly. Hmmmm! Lemme see if i still remember...