Targeting Problems

[XLjedi]

OK... that's the way it should be done.

I s'pose people just aren't catching on that we're using the TDC to compute a lead angle for a 0°-gyro shot. The only thing we've done is eliminate a lookup table for different torpedo/target speeds.

We should do an advanced O'Kane method that allows folks to approach from different angles other than 90°. Then the torpedo advance would actually produce an ever-so-small error associated with the distance estimate. I'd still just set it to 1000-2000 and not worry about it though. You might get a kick out of watching your torpedo turn into the target from a 45° approach angle.

[Monk29]

RR, great tutoral, first time viewing it. Frankly, I have been using the DO method since I saw (and stayed awake, no card game here) your brief posted on the Video Turtoral: TDC + PK Adv thread. The DO Method has produced the most kills for me thus far. I guess my frustration has be with my failure to produce a solution through the TDC that gets me the same results. I would like to be able to snap a guy in half using the step by step method briefed by WernerSobe (as in make the TDC work for me) in his second TDC video. I usually save at first contact, so I give the by the book targeting a chance and then to switch to the DO Method to get effects on target.

Thanks for the help RR, aaron and felt.

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

I think he's referring to holding the aiming wire constant, ie constant bearing attack...

I was, and also not necessarily at 90 degrees to the target track, but re-reading what I wrote above I didn't make that very clear. Sorry if I caused confusion.

Regards,
Feltan

[McBeck]

Im gonna ask a stupid question....do you remember to open the torpedo doors by pressing "Q" ?

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by McBeck

Im gonna ask a stupid question....do you remember to open the torpedo doors by pressing "Q" ?

If you don't you miss astern, just like two people have said so far. And you have to allow 15 or 30 seconds for the doors to open before firing, too!

Not opening the torpedo doors can ruin ANY attack unless the target has an AoB of 0 or 180 or unless both you and the target are stationary.

Excellent catch!

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Feltan

I was, and also not necessarily at 90 degrees to the target track, but re-reading what I wrote above I didn't make that very clear. Sorry if I caused confusion.

Regards,
Feltan

Actually the real O'Kane method involved using the PK and calling the AoB to determine target true course... confirming the PK track and then just as he was ready to fire... turn the PK off and fire at points of interest as they passed the wire.

We've dumbed it down quite a bit...

O'Kane followed the standard approach course procedure target bearing 90° abeam (that's different than a 90° approach to the target true course) and used 3 second scope peeks to true up the PK track to the target.

If you follow this attack strategy then all inputs to the PK are indeed important, the order of importance is as follows:
1) Speed
2) AoB
3) Distance

You should prioritize your data gathering with the above order in the back of your mind. AoB and distance are very forgiving... speed is a solution killer.

The closer your gyro track is to 0° the less distance will have influence. The error that distance introduces is ONLY related to the torpedo advance. After the torpedo makes it's turn, and providing you're staying inside of a 20-30° gyro angle it's not too bad.

If you you've got speed and distance close AoB allows a lot of room for error... I think you're pretty safe in the +-15° to 20° range provided your within 1000yds.

[Mush Martin]

its been my experience that okanes method makes for a good searching
shot if your not certain of your data. what Dick realized is that a trigonometric
torpedo shot is really a function of interval (time) intersection.

the target will pass through the spot at some point the question is when.

Okanes method also has a tendency when used right on a difficult target.
(eg, Yamato) to walk the damage down the full length of the target ship,
a distribution of damage that is recomended and effective in game.

on the other hand spread shooting can be artistic and in the case of
shooting on formations more effective. as often as not when I target
multiple ships I will target one and shoot on two by estimating the
bearing difference in the offset angle created by the two targets seperation
along the line of advance.

this creates simultaneous first strike on multiple targets Precluding
enemy evasive maneuvers ruining your shot.

Thus !


(btw this is an eight thousand yard shot)

[XLjedi]

Well shoot... after that patrol you ought to have the option to retire as an admiral and write a book!

BTW, I'm not impressed at all... I see you missed that last one.

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

Actually the real O'Kane method involved using the PK and calling the AoB to determine target true course... confirming the PK track and then just as he was ready to fire... turn the PK off and fire at points of interest as they passed the wire.

We've dumbed it down quite a bit...

O'Kane followed the standard approach course procedure target bearing 90° abeam (that's different than a 90° approach to the target true course) and used 3 second scope peeks to true up the PK track to the target.

If you follow this attack strategy then all inputs to the PK are indeed important, the order of importance is as follows:
1) Speed
2) AoB
3) Distance

You should prioritize your data gathering with the above order in the back of your mind. AoB and distance are very forgiving... speed is a solution killer.

The closer your gyro track is to 0° the less distance will have influence. The error that distance introduces is ONLY related to the torpedo advance. After the torpedo makes it's turn, and providing you're staying inside of a 20-30° gyro angle it's not too bad.

If you you've got speed and distance close AoB allows a lot of room for error... I think you're pretty safe in the +-15° to 20° range provided your within 1000yds.

Thanks for that summary -- all of it quite familiar to me. Eugene Fluckey was my Godfather, and my father was a classmate of his. Had an opportunity to talk to him at length about this sort of thing before his health failed.

Regards,
Feltan

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Feltan

Thanks for that summary -- all of it quite familiar to me. Eugene Fluckey was my Godfather, and my father was a classmate of his. Had an opportunity to talk to him at length about this sort of thing before his health failed.

Regards,
Feltan

Cool... too bad we can't mount rockets on our boats like Fluckey did.

He was like a madman... always on the surface... that harbor attack... blowin up trains... I don't think he would've lived to long in the Bay of Biscay.

Very aggressive he was; different tactics for a different theater against a different adversary I s'pose. ...and I truly think he was pretty "Lucky"

I wish Fluckey would've given a little more detail on his targetting method in his book. But it seemed like he more often was doing semi-crazy stuff like sneaking past destroyers to shoot at fat stationary harbor targets, or assaulting cities with rocket attacks.

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

BTW, I'm not impressed at all... I see you missed that last one.

Sorry I was putting three in each of the first three, well maybe next time
on the promotion to neptune lord of all the seas.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Feltan

Thanks for that summary -- all of it quite familiar to me. Eugene Fluckey was my Godfather, and my father was a classmate of his. Had an opportunity to talk to him at length about this sort of thing before his health failed.

Regards,
Feltan

Fluckey revolutionized submarine warfare. He cannibalized his own scuttling charges to blow up that train, landing the only American troops on Japanese home soil during the war. Starting his career after boats were returning to Pearl full of torpedoes reporting no contacts, Fluckey bagged and incredible score, bringing more medalsto boat, crew and himself than any captain of the war.

Aside from the Dick O'Kane targeting technique, my whole strategy is based on a study of Fluckey's career.

I'll disagree with aaronblood. Fluckey wasn't a madman. Everything he did was calculated and nuanced. He took chances but not foolhardy chances. He realized that audacity is a great defense stategy. He would have done fine in the Bay of Biscay.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I'll disagree with aaronblood. Fluckey wasn't a madman. Everything he did was calculated and nuanced. He took chances but not foolhardy chances. He realized that audacity is a great defense stategy. He would have done fine in the Bay of Biscay.

Oh good grief...

I was speaking fuguratively of course! As you might say to a teammate in baseball after they finish a game 5 for 5, "You Madman!"

Fluckey's tactics would not have served him well trying to sail out of Biscay later in the war. I imagine he would've adapted to the situation. But if he just blazed out on the surface it would've killed him. As I said, different tactics, different theater, different adversary...

Shoot, I still use the Barb emblem as my avatar on the Ubi-Forum! ...use to have it here in my sig too.
Probably my favorite sub commander.



That reminds me... I gotta redo the MoBo emblem and have Neal add it to my avatar here. I've never seen a ship's helm with 12 spokes; at most 10 and I've seen a lot with 8. Be kinda funny if I used 11 though... "Yeah, most helms have 10 spokes, mine goes to 11."

[ananas_987]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track, that doesn't mean you point the aiming wire at 0°. If you do that, your torpedo won't track 0°, it'll veer to the left or right 5-10°. If you entered no solution at all... it'll track a straight line down the 0° gyro path, but you'd have to point the aiming wire with a 10°-20° lead for a better point of impact. In which case you've just totally ignored the TDC completely and you're playing as if WWI technology is all you have to work with.

To use the TDC, you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).

How can i know when it's 10 degrees and when 20 degrees, i mean what the speed should be?

[ananas_987]

[quote=ananas_987]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track, that doesn't mean you point the aiming wire at 0°. If you do that, your torpedo won't track 0°, it'll veer to the left or right 5-10°. If you entered no solution at all... it'll track a straight line down the 0° gyro path, but you'd have to point the aiming wire with a 10°-20° lead for a better point of impact. In which case you've just totally ignored the TDC completely and you're playing as if WWI technology is all you have to work with.

To use the TDC, you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).

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