Obama's bra 54 Double D!

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I thought that Senator Obama's speech on Monday (I think) was good. Straight forward and he addressed the concerns.

People who attend church are not mindless zombies. Just because a soon to retire pastor vents does not mean that everyone in the church is going to buy it.

Just because Senator Obama said that this pastor was his spiritual mentor does not mean that he blindly accepts everything he said. I have have had many mentors in both my professional and academic lives. I have not had one that I did not strongly disagree with on some matter. Does that mean they can't be my mentor?

No, it does mean that I learned from them. I always learned from my mentors. Sometimes I learned what to do and other times I learned what not to do.

It is quite probable that Senator Obama listened to this crap and disagreed. If I were to sever contact with everyone I ever disagreed with I would be a lonely man indeed.

To me this is a non-issue being fanned by the Senator Clinton team.

There are other more important things you can either like or dislike Senator Obama about then what some jerk in his church said before retiring.

Spot on Platapus How many millions of people attend church every Sunday and hear their minister/preacher/priest etc denounce Darwinism? Does that mean that you "by association" support them in that view? Hardly. And here we are talking about a fundemental difference to the very principal of Christianity. One promoting 'chance', the other 'purpose'.

As Obama has himself said, he sought out some people to help him in his fledging political career - that is the nature of politics, possibly more so in Chicago, and particularly within the black community. It is not allways "what you know" but "who you know" that gets some doors opened. I also believe this view of his is articulated in his belief that if he is elected president of the USA he will open up dialogue with America's enemies as opposed to pointedly ignoring them.

Personally, I think the only question that has to be vigoursly asked of him is whether he agreed with those views of his minister. He has gone on record as saying he does not. Now, unless someone comes forward with reputable evidence to challenge him on this, then it is time to move on.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

How many millions of people attend church every Sunday and hear their minister/preacher/priest etc denounce Darwinism? Does that mean that you "by association" support them in that view?

I'd say there is a little difference between your example and his action(or inaction). How can someone lead spiritually when they are bigots? OB by virtue of him staying there and being silent agrees with him. Kind of like the slip by his wife in saying that her husband running for president is the first time she was proud of this country. A normal couple I would shrug and say "Thats there opinion". They aren't normal. He's running for the top post of this country. It matters. That cut him out of the loop as far as I'm concerned.

In fact lets turn it a little. If Hillary was a member of a church where her minister was against blacks what do you think would happen? All hell would have been raised, she would have lost every supporter, she would drop out of the race and she would be finished politically. Double standard as far as I'm concerned.

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

In fact lets turn it a little. If Hillary was a member of a church where her minister was against blacks what do you think would happen? All hell would have been raised, she would have lost every supporter, she would drop out of the race and she would be finished politically. Double standard as far as I'm concerned.

I think you want to google Billy Graham and see what he has to say about Jews and Catholics, or better still, have a look at what old Bill had to say about the reverend Wright after he invited and embraced him into the White House. Hell, he even wrote a letter to him a few days later saying he was uplifted by his semon. I am cerainly not arguing or trying to find excuses for Wright, all I am saying is, put this into perspective. Sound bites don't help.

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

have a look at what old Bill had to say about the reverend Wright after he invited and embraced him into the White House. Hell, he even wrote a letter to him a few days later saying he was uplifted by his semon. I am cerainly not arguing or trying to find excuses for Wright, all I am saying is, put this into perspective. Sound bites don't help.

LOL

Perspective?

This is perspective?

An 800 pound gorrilla vs. Mini me!

A form letter and a publicity photo

VS.

A 20 year relationship with a racialy motivated church and pastor.

The wrong Rev. Wright seems to have influenced his wife and BHO given his wife"s comment. BHO failure to salute the flag during the national anthem and refusal to ware the American flag just goes to show there is influence there.

PS:

This page is not a sound bite and it is from Trinity church web site.

http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html


Perspective. :p

Sound bite my a##!

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

This page is not a sound bite and it is from Trinity church web site.

http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html


Perspective. :p

Sound bite my a##!

Unless I missed something, and please point out if I did, all I saw on that site was "The Black Value System" a "10 point vision" for the church, a statement "unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christain" - nothing earth shattering. I am unashamedly white and proud of it - so what?

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

Unless I missed something, and please point out if I did, all I saw on that site was "The Black Value System" a "10 point vision" for the church, a statement "unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christain" - nothing earth shattering. I am unashamedly white and proud of it - so what?

You are seeing what you want to see.

So much so you failed to look at the link I posted. Because if you did you would see it for yourself.

BTW

The site lists 12 points not 10.

Read the link and while reading switch the word black with white.

Point 11:

"Pledge Allegiance to All Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace the Black Value System."

A church asking allegiance.

Not to God, Not to your country, but to your race.

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

You are seeing what you want to see.

So much so you failed to look at the link I posted. Because if you did you would see it for yourself.

BTW

The site lists 12 points not 10.

Read the link and while reading switch the word black with white.

Point 11:

"Pledge Allegiance to All Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace the Black Value System."

A church asking allegiance.

Not to God, Not to your country, but to your race.

I think YOU need to read your link properly. For the record, here is the 10 POINT VISION


We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.
The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.
2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.
3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Now, with all due respect, please point out which one of these 10 points is anti-american or causing you concern. All I read are 10 points of which some can be classified as black empowerment.

Given the 10 point vision of the church, I'm having a hard time trying to understand why the elders of the church did not bring Wright back into line. There are a number of points parts of his sermons clearly violated.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

I think you want to google Billy Graham and see what he has to say about Jews and Catholics, or better still, have a look at what old Bill had to say about the reverend Wright after he invited and embraced him into the White House. Hell, he even wrote a letter to him a few days later saying he was uplifted by his semon. I am cerainly not arguing or trying to find excuses for Wright, all I am saying is, put this into perspective. Sound bites don't help.

Billy Graham is not anybody in governments preacher so whats your point? I don't think Grahams been to the White house in a few years because of some of his remarks if that is what you are tying to point out.
Wright was one of a group of clerics at the White House in 1998 for a prayer breakfast. Not exactly a presidential endorsement.
I put it in perspective.

During a Christmas sermon, Wright tried to compare Obama’s upbringing to Jesus at the hands of the Romans.
“Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people,” Wright said. “Hillary would never know that.
“Hillary ain’t never been called a ******. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”
In his Jan. 13 sermon, Wright said:
“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”

Thats all the perspective I need.

[AVGWarhawk]

Starfox:

he was born trash?

You cannot be born trash, you have to earn it though your actions. My father was black and my mother is white, does that make me trash too? From the way he mentions it, yes I guess I am trash.

When I listen to this "pastor" Starfox that is impression that I got. As if he is unpure because of a black father and white mother. I noted he particularly went after the white mother of Obama as if she were some type of harlot. It did have a overtone of being racial. I feel for you in this respect and certainly you are not trash as this loose cannon would have you believe. You are correct, the "trash" label is gotten from poor action or inaction and that includes every walk of life.

Guess what, I have done more with my life then I ever thought possiable. I have fought for a ship that is an American Icon. I have worked my way up from a failing student in High school to a College student that is rather succesful. I am not trash.

Reverend, you can kiss both cheeks of my ass

Being that you and I live in the land of the free, you can send off a nice letter to this paster and his church with a nice challenge to the talk of "trash" because of a black father and white mother. I would certainly think about it. Send him a nice pic of your posterior to kiss I wonder if anyone in the congregation also has the same situation as you and Obama when it comes to parents.:hmm: I wonder if he caught any crap for it after his sermon was completed. Do not let it worry you, your good name is all you need to make it though life.

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Billy Graham is not anybody in governments preacher so whats your point? I don't think Grahams been to the White house in a few years because of some of his remarks if that is what you are tying to point out.

Well, he and the Clintons appear to be more than just good friends - that is my point. So my question is: Why is Hillary not called upon to repudiate some of his outlandish remarks? Just asking.

Speaking to thousands of people on the second night of his crusade in New York City, Billy Graham stood by the side of former President Bill Clinton and his wife, Hillary. Graham said “Mrs. Clinton might make a good President.” He called Bill Clinton and his wife “wonderful friends” and “a great couple.” Graham said that the former President “should become an evangelist and allow his wife to run the country.”
http://soldierservant.wordpress.com/...for-president/

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

Well, he and the Clintons appear to be more than just good friends - that is my point. So my question is: Why is Hillary not called upon to repudiate some of his outlandish remarks? Just asking.

Show me where Graham even comes close to or along the lines of Wrights comments. I'm asking this because I've looked and couldn't find any. Was Graham a full time preacher to any of eleven administrations that had invited him to the white house?

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

On whether OB should have got up if he was present during one of these rants and say: "Excuse me Reverand, if you don't stop speaking crap, I will be be forced to leave as some time in over the course of the next 20 years I might want to run for the presidency of the USA and I don't want to run the risk of acquiesing to your statements. But the rest of you good folk in the pews who don't harbour such aspirations feel free to stay - just please don't excomunicate me".

Oh, about anytime he decided to step into public life would have been a good time. How many years has that been? I'll ask you again what if Hillary's preacher said the same things about blacks. I'm not asking you to defend Wright I'm asking what if Hillary's preacher said the same things about blacks.
Nothing stopped Obama from attending another church except his choice to voluntarily be there. By staying and not voicing any objection he agrees with Wright. I'd say he has had more then enough time. I don't want something like that leading my country Period!

[Tchocky]

Am I the only who's left cold by the hullabaloo over Wright's comments?
Unusual? Yes.
Unhelpful for elections? Yes.
Unreasonable? Yes.
Shocking or surprising? Hell no.
Like many statements that candidates have to deny, there's a grain of truth. The US didn't create AIDS to kill black people. Google the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. The US isn't 100% responsible for what happened on 9/11. Google blowback.
This doesn't mean that Wright is right, it just invalidates a hell of a lot of the coverage.
Here's the whole thing, ignore the video title/comments/spin.

It seems that the media/public can't handle the usual election cycle of flag-humping being interrupted. That a candidate for office doesn't seem to "love the country enough" would get laughed out of contention in this country. Knocking someone for displaying an invented notion of "anti-americanism" is ridiculous, or would be here.

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

How can someone lead spiritually when they are bigots? OB by virtue of him staying there and being silent agrees with him.

So we agree that the Pope, Billy Graham, christian fundamentalists both in the US and elsewhere, in fact, any religious leader of whatever persuasion that either through scripture or belief excludes, denounces, shuns, any group of people or ideas contary to their own are bigots. You won't find me arguing with you there.

On whether OB should have got up if he was present during one of these rants and say: "Excuse me Reverand, if you don't stop speaking crap, I will be be forced to leave as some time in over the course of the next 20 years I might want to run for the presidency of the USA and I don't want to run the risk of acquiesing to your statements. But the rest of you good folk in the pews who don't harbour such aspirations feel free to stay - just please don't excomunicate me".

Sorry, I don't buy it. If you are going to hold him to such standards we must ALL be held, and if we all did what you state he should have, I doubt there would be a religious house left anywhere in the world that would still have a congregation to speak of.