Evading torpedoes in the FFG

[Dr.Sid]

Nixie is rather ineffective, right.

But you get it all wrong (most people do). You think about it as a game. To get shot at is no big thing, so you thing how to avoid the torpedo.

In real life you should think about how to not get shot at in the first place. And this is the main defense against torpedoes in FFG too.

When you simply can't avoid it, there is practically only thing you can do, but it works quite well. It's running. FFG has plenty of speed. You must get out of the incoming torpedo seeking area before the torpedo gets there. For that it is usefull to know where exactly torpedo aims. While sub is blind at high speeds, FFG can use buoys for that.

Also FFG can simply outrun some torpedoes. Not that it's faster, but since the torpedo has limited range and is shot from some distance, the chance of evading it by simply running away from it is quite big.
There are same tables here in thread which shows ranges and speeds at which you can evade each torpedo.



Both methods are very useful for subs too.

[sonar732]

From the FFG guide at Commanders Academy & Dive...

= Anti Torpedo Warfare =

== The sensor war ==

Against torpedoes, the sensor war is simple. As long as you have a working sonar, you should be able to detect any torpedoes in the area. This means a max speed for ownship sensors, or the use of sonobuoys.

The first order of the day may be an evasive maneuver, so as to invalidate a firing solution, but the second is determining what kind of torpedo has been fired, and on who.

== Know your enemy ==

In DW there are three types of torpedoes.

# Wakehoming
# Acoustic
# Wireguided Acoustic

=== The wakehoming torpedo ===
...is a special case. Unless fired from very close to point blank, it's easily avoided.

If it is fired with a lead, either stopping or mirroring your course will make it a wasted shot. If you hold a speed of 4 knots, you're no longer making the wake it homes on. It can however, home directly on your hull, should it get close enough. (~500m, lwami ~50)

If fired into the wake you've just created, on the other hand, they're coming for you. Unless the torpedo will need too much time getting to it, so that it expires before then.

If it does get on your trail, your best chances will be with maneuvering, though this may be an exercise in futility.

=== The Acoustic torpedo ===

The best thing is to get out of its path. These are nearly always fired on a solution, and maneuvering to invalidate the solution it was fired on will then make it miss - unless its fired from close enough not to matter.

'''If wireguided''' the one who fired it can resteer it, and it's a cat and mouse game of trying to make him steer it wrong. With the odds generally strongly in his favour. You'll have to rob him of his sensors, which is not quite doable should he have external sensors (UUV), or even rob him of his life. If he's dead he can't guide. (easier said than done.)

Should getting away not be an option, two things might help. First, the nixie towed decoy. This will create a racket when in the water, so should not be deployed when not needed. (Todo: verify)

Secondly, slow down. It doesn't matter how noisy the nixie is if you're outnoising it. If you slow down to 9 knots or less you even get the bonus of the hull passive, whose primary use is the detection and tracking of torpedoes. It will also show ship-relative, which is useful for telling if it homes on you or the nixie.

''LWAMI note: Since the torpedoes no longer detonate on the nixie, you probably want to make sure you're not right behind it''

[Dr.Sid]

AFAIK noise of the target only affects detection range. Once the target is detected and locked, it will not be switched, even if more noisy target appears near (or better return for active).
So the point is to prepare target which will be acquired before you can be acquired. Both active and passive torpedo sensors have small range, I guess you won't be able to be quiet enough so the torpedo would ignore you when you get into its acquisition cone. So moving slow has no sense. You just need to arrange it so nixie enters the torpedo's acquisition cone before you.

Anyway I have never successfully used nixie and I'm not even trying any more. Getting away or simply running works.
Smoking them before they can shoot works even better.

As you mentioned, firing back should be part of the evasion !

[Molon Labe]

A quick LWAMI related note: the note supra is out of date. Here's the deal.

When DW 1.04 came out, detonate-on-decoy settings became adjustable settings. Because players now had a choice in the matter, there was no need for the LWAMI change that made torpedoes pass through decoys, so the first LWAMI after 1.04 had this feature removed. But, it didn't take long for complaints to come in about the Nixie being completely worthless if it didn't detonate, along with some speculative realism concerns. So, the current version of LWAMI reinstated the no-detonations-on-decoys feature for expendable decoys, while the towed decoys remained subject to the .ini settings.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Anyway I have never successfully used nixie and I'm not even trying any more. Getting away or simply running works.
Smoking them before they can shoot works even better.

Assuming the .ini settings allow detonations on the towed decoy:

1. Towed decoys are nominally effective in a tail chase situation.
2. Towed decoys are as effective as expendable decoys for breaking a lock by an acquired torpedo. Just as when using an expendable decoy, the evading ship must cause the torpedo sensor to sweep over the decoy. In the FFG, this is done by performing an S-turn. The difficulty is knowing when to perform the S-turn without the use of an active intercept sensor.

While I'm commenting though, I want to express agreement that the most effective evasion tactic for the FFG is dragging. You can beat a USET or 53-56K by dragging alone unless they were fired from something like 4nm (check the NE range chart for an exact figure). Against a UGST salvo, dragging will likely cause a spacing between the torpedoes in the salvo that might allow time for Nixie redeployment.

[kage]

Originally Posted by sonar732

From the FFG guide at Commanders Academy & Dive...

(snip lotsa crap I wrote)

I think I said a few times to throw it away; simply because it misinforms a great deal. I never got around to rewriting it, though.

A good number of things were confirmed to be wrong, I think some may have changed, and so on.

I guess that even as bad as it is, there's nothing better.


I am of the opinion that in the ASW role, nothing beats the "floating helopad" tactic for these ships.
-Staying far away and stealthy
4 knots and slower to not cavitate, (as appropriate)
no radar, (as appropriate)
and absolutely no active sonar
-Giving the pilots a place to refuel/reload.
-Monitoring TA for loud transients associated with launches, cavitation, what-have-you.
-Help processing buoys through the datalink
-Organize information
-Use the gun camera for long-distance surface visual classification. (no binoculars? wtf? Nor can they access their own recon camera that you can use for them? double-wtf?)
-To discourage the popup sam site, launch a harpoon to pass over as the helo does to drop that torpedo. (Note: It doesn't shut down afterwards*, beware of neutrals.)

* last time I tried. Did anything change?

And unless you're playing DW on a lan party, don't ever let a player manually land his helo. The autopilot is slow as hell, but it's better than overloading the internet connection, lagging out, crashing, disconnecting, or worse.

(What's worse? Some DirectPlay thing in Operation Flashpoint caused loss of partition. Yeah. Really.)

At that range, torpedoes are a non-issue. You have the greatest standoff weapon available in (playable) DW. Use it.


... though that's not always an option. For example, quick missions start you in the middle of a very hot area, with the subs well within firing range. Even if you do have quick helo launches turned on, you're either screwed, or the subs are at flank doing their own stupid thing.

Or the close escort missions. Or <90ft shallows. Or ... well, a lot of things.


As for once you actually have the torpedo coming your way, what it says in my guide is mostly correct, except about the nixie. My experience has been that if you keep the torpedo at your 180, it'll shut down on the nixie; but not always. (I think that corresponds to the "only one torpedo" thing). Keeping it out at all times has no disadvantages except the conditions that can make any towed thing break. The biggest advantage to 180 is still the part about outrunning the torps range.

I've also had wakehomers pass through my hull without detonating or breaking their stride at <5 knots. (Where the wake disappears.)
That happened way after I wrote that stuff, and I don't know how much lwami had to do with it.

Somebody knowledgeable really should look over that guide and give it a proper overhaul.

Better yet, we should get all those bugs fixed. Oh wait...

With too little competition, there's too little incentive. All good wishes to Dr Sid; you're probably exactly what we need right now. Please save us.