Let's Butt Heads With An Add-on

tater · 03-02-08, 12:00 PM

I can give you the measurements from the ONI manuals, use those. If they are wrong, then they are wrong, just like RL. Some are pretty close to being right, though.

No more accurate than RL, and the real skippers has scopes not nearly as nice to look through by a long shot.

CapnScurvy · 03-02-08, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I can give you the measurements from the ONI manuals, use those. If they are wrong, then they are wrong, just like RL. Some are pretty close to being right, though.

If your pointing that offer at me, thanks Tater, but My main goal is to provide the gamer with any accurate tool to use when manual targeting. The mast height figures control directly the calculations of range distance when using the manual targeting option. The fact that the Large Minelayer is off by 400 plus yards because of the mast height figure just isn't right no matter how I look at it. Meters, Feet, Furlongs, or Fathoms it doesn't make much difference what measurement tool you use, as long as it's accurately calculated within the game. I can't speak for the Devs, but I have a thought that's the way they intended it to be.

Rockin Robbins · 03-02-08, 12:48 PM

Scurvy would have been hell on earth as a sub skipper meeting with Admiral Lockwood complaining about the inaccurate ONI manuals. This is one confrontation I think the Admiral might have lost.

But then, being the iconoclast he was, Admiral Lockwood would be the first in line to take the complaints up the ladder and let the chips fall where they may. The only problem in RL was that there was no way to take the Hiryu out to a smooth spot, shut down its engines, pace off a precise distance and see how far the ONI manual was from reality. No American could sneak aboard with a tape measure and actually find the real height either.

The numbers we had were the numbers we had. There was no way to even know that they were wrong except by missing the shot. The sub captains were pretty sarcastic about the accuracy of their ID manuals, but realized that they could get no better.

My position is that if we are going to call this a simulation, we also have to simulate error. I'm assuming the devs used ONI numbers and didn't just err on their own.

But the results are the same: accurately simulating the frustration of real US sub skippers. Job well done, I say!:rotfl:

That doesn't mean I won't snap up any mod CapnScurvy makes and try it out. But I'd rather get some numbers from tater and plug them in instead to experience the same consequences as the real captains.

Darn! I feel another Admiral Lockwood post struggling to be born. DANGER!!!!!!

CapnScurvy · 03-02-08, 01:17 PM

Tater, to just quickly look at your figures, the ONI manual has the Okinoshima as a mast height of 107', my accurate distance of about 94 feet is pretty close to that. Whichever you use, it beats the measily 69 feet the game Recognition Manual reports.

I know you've done a lot of work on ship design and creation. I'm wondering if the ship.sim file/unit_ship/properties/mass changes the height of a ship as it's seen in the water? I'm just guessing it does, but I've never monkeyed with it to see what changes the ship makes. I have pushed the GC_height beyond normal and seen the unsettling results. Do you know what the FR_ratio parameter does? Just curious.

tater · 03-02-08, 01:22 PM

No. It would be cool to BP-clone ships and have some riding lower, though...

That was actually a non-trivial matter with merchant ships. Their draft, and hence mast height could very easily change by many feet.

Biyo Maru, for example has a draft of 26' loaded, and 8' light, according to ONI-208 J!

Frankly, given the fact that the game doesn't seem to do this (does it?) I'd be inclined to treat the loaded vs unloaded values as an error bar on the mast height.

Biyo is 82' with a 18' slop. I'd set the mast height wrong by 9', lol.

tater

theluckyone17 · 03-02-08, 02:03 PM

Do all the ships *have* to have an entry in the I.D. book?

'Cause I'd personally love to see the ONI heights listed in the book, then 3 cloned ships for each merchant ship... one loaded, one unloaded, and one in the middle. Makes things a bit more realistic and problematic.

Having each show up in the I.D. book would be more than a little on the irritatin' side, however. Clicking three times to progress through one ship would drive me crazy.

tater · 03-02-08, 02:13 PM

Heheh. No, they don't. I can do this now, in fact. In Names.cfg you add new unit types. The ships appear, but they don't get a rec manual entry.

I have plans to use this

It's in an old thread on adding ships in the mods forum.

;Merchant ships
Type100=Replenishment
Type101=Tanker
Type102=Cargo
Type103=Troop Transport
Type104=Coastal Vessel
Type105=Life Raft
Type106=Survivor
Type107=Environmental

Add:
Type108=CargoEmpty
Type109=CargoLoaded

You'd have to clone the ships, make the changes, then explicitly add those types into the campaign, then.

theluckyone17 · 03-02-08, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I have plans to use this

I can feel the cursing and headache comin' on already

. Sadly, that's a good thing

.

CapnScurvy · 03-03-08, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Heheh. No, they don't. I can do this now, in fact. In Names.cfg you add new unit types. The ships appear, but they don't get a rec manual entry.

I have plans to use this

It's in an old thread on adding ships in the mods forum.

;Merchant ships
Type100=Replenishment
Type101=Tanker
Type102=Cargo
Type103=Troop Transport
Type104=Coastal Vessel
Type105=Life Raft
Type106=Survivor
Type107=Environmental

Add:
Type108=CargoEmpty
Type109=CargoLoaded

You'd have to clone the ships, make the changes, then explicitly add those types into the campaign, then.

I have a version of this in my latest 1.2 "manual Ship Centered, Accuracy Fix" mod. The little easter egg I put in uses one of the Iceberg files for inputting the candy into the game engine. Whoever saw an iceberg in the South Pacific military field of operations anyway? North yes, South no.

tater · 03-02-08, 12:49 PM

Without a "~" the exact value is given, or in the case of warships the mast seems to end on one of the 15' lines drawn. With a ~, probably +- 1-3 feet (different scale drawings, the bigger the ship, the larger the error).

Conte Verde 115'
Horai 110'
Kiturin 104'
Tyohei 90'
Heito 76'
Zinbu 82'
Hakusika 63'
Kinposan 78'
Biyo 82'
Kagasian 74'
Haruna 57'
Buzyon 80'
Nippon 87'
Nagara 100'

Minekaze ~70'
Mutsuki ~67
Fubuki ~77'-80' (several sub types in ONI, hard to tell apart)
Shiratsuyu ~75'
Asashio ~71'
Akizuki ~73'

Kuma ~118'
Takao ~130'-145'+ (different ships in ONI)
Furutaka 120'
Mogami ~112'
Tone ~105'
Naka 105'

Shokaku ~96'
Chitose ~88'

Kongo 135'
Fuso ~160-165' (ONI made 2 classes)
Ise ~130'

Okinoshima 107'
Subchaser ~32'
No13 ~64'

tater · 03-02-08, 12:52 PM

If the height is exactly right, the range should be accurate, true. If the ONI manual was wrong, the value all US skippers would have plugged in would have been wrong, so they would have systematically misestimated the range.

So while it would be worth testing the stadimeter to make sure that with the height set right you get the right range, after that, I'd set the values the stadimeter thinks the height is to the ONI values and let everyone miss if it comes out that way. Fire spreads to hit.

03-02-08, 12:48 PM	#3
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	Hehehehehehehe!!! Scurvy would have been hell on earth as a sub skipper meeting with Admiral Lockwood complaining about the inaccurate ONI manuals. This is one confrontation I think the Admiral might have lost. But then, being the iconoclast he was, Admiral Lockwood would be the first in line to take the complaints up the ladder and let the chips fall where they may. The only problem in RL was that there was no way to take the Hiryu out to a smooth spot, shut down its engines, pace off a precise distance and see how far the ONI manual was from reality. No American could sneak aboard with a tape measure and actually find the real height either. The numbers we had were the numbers we had. There was no way to even know that they were wrong except by missing the shot. The sub captains were pretty sarcastic about the accuracy of their ID manuals, but realized that they could get no better. My position is that if we are going to call this a simulation, we also have to simulate error. I'm assuming the devs used ONI numbers and didn't just err on their own. But the results are the same: accurately simulating the frustration of real US sub skippers. Job well done, I say!:rotfl: That doesn't mean I won't snap up any mod CapnScurvy makes and try it out. But I'd rather get some numbers from tater and plug them in instead to experience the same consequences as the real captains. Darn! I feel another Admiral Lockwood post struggling to be born. DANGER!!!!!! __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

03-02-08, 12:49 PM	#10
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Without a "~" the exact value is given, or in the case of warships the mast seems to end on one of the 15' lines drawn. With a ~, probably +- 1-3 feet (different scale drawings, the bigger the ship, the larger the error). Conte Verde 115' Horai 110' Kiturin 104' Tyohei 90' Heito 76' Zinbu 82' Hakusika 63' Kinposan 78' Biyo 82' Kagasian 74' Haruna 57' Buzyon 80' Nippon 87' Nagara 100' Minekaze ~70' Mutsuki ~67 Fubuki ~77'-80' (several sub types in ONI, hard to tell apart) Shiratsuyu ~75' Asashio ~71' Akizuki ~73' Kuma ~118' Takao ~130'-145'+ (different ships in ONI) Furutaka 120' Mogami ~112' Tone ~105' Naka 105' Shokaku ~96' Chitose ~88' Kongo 135' Fuso ~160-165' (ONI made 2 classes) Ise ~130' Okinoshima 107' Subchaser ~32' No13 ~64' Last edited by tater; 03-02-08 at 01:22 PM.

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03-02-08, 12:00 PM	#1
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I can give you the measurements from the ONI manuals, use those. If they are wrong, then they are wrong, just like RL. Some are pretty close to being right, though. No more accurate than RL, and the real skippers has scopes not nearly as nice to look through by a long shot.

03-02-08, 01:22 PM	#5
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	No. It would be cool to BP-clone ships and have some riding lower, though... That was actually a non-trivial matter with merchant ships. Their draft, and hence mast height could very easily change by many feet. Biyo Maru, for example has a draft of 26' loaded, and 8' light, according to ONI-208 J! Frankly, given the fact that the game doesn't seem to do this (does it?) I'd be inclined to treat the loaded vs unloaded values as an error bar on the mast height. Biyo is 82' with a 18' slop. I'd set the mast height wrong by 9', lol. tater

03-02-08, 02:03 PM	#6
theluckyone17 Captain Join Date: May 2006 Location: Niskayuna, NY Posts: 482 Downloads: 103 Uploads: 0	Do all the ships have to have an entry in the I.D. book? 'Cause I'd personally love to see the ONI heights listed in the book, then 3 cloned ships for each merchant ship... one loaded, one unloaded, and one in the middle. Makes things a bit more realistic and problematic. Having each show up in the I.D. book would be more than a little on the irritatin' side, however. Clicking three times to progress through one ship would drive me crazy.

03-02-08, 02:13 PM	#7
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Heheh. No, they don't. I can do this now, in fact. In Names.cfg you add new unit types. The ships appear, but they don't get a rec manual entry. I have plans to use this It's in an old thread on adding ships in the mods forum. ;Merchant ships Type100=Replenishment Type101=Tanker Type102=Cargo Type103=Troop Transport Type104=Coastal Vessel Type105=Life Raft Type106=Survivor Type107=Environmental Add: Type108=CargoEmpty Type109=CargoLoaded You'd have to clone the ships, make the changes, then explicitly add those types into the campaign, then.

03-02-08, 12:52 PM	#11
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	If the height is exactly right, the range should be accurate, true. If the ONI manual was wrong, the value all US skippers would have plugged in would have been wrong, so they would have systematically misestimated the range. So while it would be worth testing the stadimeter to make sure that with the height set right you get the right range, after that, I'd set the values the stadimeter thinks the height is to the ONI values and let everyone miss if it comes out that way. Fire spreads to hit.