Are You a Creationist or an Evolutionist? (See Post For Details)

[Dowly]

I bet my money on the big bang thingy.

[Skybird]

On the question of how things and matter and life and mind develope and why, and if there is any: what structure and relations these factors form, I recommend this one-in-a-century literature that ranks amongst the most impressive and well-thought books I have ever read. I know the man and his books since 20 years, he has influenced and structured my thinking tremendously - maybe more than anyone else:

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Ecology-Sp...3161728&sr=8-4

Very well thought out, well-funded in reason and references (appenidx alone is 200 pages) and simply breathtaking in its elegant intellectual approach once the basics have been formed out.

On the book, from: wikipedia:

Content

Published in 1995, SES (as it is sometimes abbreviated) is the work in which Wilber grapples with modern philosophical naturalism, attempting to show its insufficiency as an explanation of being, evolution, and the meaning of life. He also describes an approach, called vision-logic, which he finds qualified to succeed modernism.
Wilber's project in this book requires nothing less than a complete re-visioning of the history of Eastern and Western thought. There are four philosophers that Wilber finds to be of the highest importance:

• Plotinus, Neo-Platonic philosopher, who introduced the first nondual philosophy to the West
• Nagarjuna, Buddhist philosopher, who did the same in the East
• Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph von Schelling, German Idealist who created the first evolutionary nondual philosophy in the West and
• Sri Aurobindo, Hindu Vedantin philosopher who did the same in the East

This is, of course, radically different from the usual history of philosophy, in which Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, René Descartes, Immanuel Kant and sometimes Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Friedrich Nietzsche are typically seen as the greatest Western philosophers, and, if Eastern thinkers are considered, Confucius, Laozi, Gautama Buddha, and Adi Shankara are among the greatest Eastern thinkers.
Wilber emphasizes that the account of existence presented by the Enlightenment is incomplete—it ignores and represses the spiritual and noetic components of existence. He accordingly avoids the term cosmos, which is associated with merely physical existence. He prefers the term kosmos to refer to the sum of manifest existence, which harks back to the usage of the term by the Pythagoreans and other ancient mystics. Wilber conceives of the Kosmos as consisting of several concentric spheres: matter (the physical universe) plus life (the vital realm) plus mind (the mental realm) plus soul (the psychic realm) plus Spirit (the spiritual realm).


The structure and theses of SES


Introduction

• Wilber describes the deeply dysteleological perspective of contemporary philosophical naturalism as "the philosophy of 'oops'".
• He describes the spiritual inadequacies of philosophical naturalism as the source of the contemporary world's menacing ecological crisis.
• He describes his methodology as outlining "orienting generalizations"—points on which agreement can be found that will reveal a shared world-space.

Book One

1. The Web of Life

• Arthur Lovejoy's account of the Great Chain of Being is used to show how the mechanistic, materialistic modern worldview triumphed over the West's traditional, holistic, hierarchical view.
• The prevalence of pathological, dominating hierarchies throughout history has given hierarchy a bad name. But hierarchy is ultimately inescapable. Thus, we should concentrate on discovering which hierarchies actually do exist and on healing them.

2. The Pattern That Connects The Twenty Tenets

• Arthur Koestler's account of holism and holarchy and Ludwig von Bertalanffy's General Systems Theory are used to describe (approximately) twenty tenets of all holons.
• Wilber calls the holistic version of the Great Chain of Being the "Great Nest of Spirit", because this account emphasizes that higher levels include as well as transcend lower ones.

3. Individual And Social

• Erich Jantsch's account of co-evolution and self-organizing systems is described.

4. A View From Within

• Two fundamental aspects of existence are described: the "Left-hand path" (interiority) and the "Right-hand path" (exteriority).
• Gross Reductionism—atomism, for example—consists of reducing a whole to its parts. Subtle Reductionism—systems theory, for example—consists of reducing the interior to the exterior. Charles Taylor's work is used to show that the Enlightenment paradigm suffers from both Gross and Subtle Reductionism.
• When Individual and Social spheres are added to the Interior and Exterior aspects of existence, four quadrants emerge.

5. The Emergence Of Human Nature

• Jean Gebser's account of the development of human consciousness is used to show how the West progressed from the magic to the mythic to the rational mentalities.
• This acknowledgment that all of existence is in development adds a third fundamental dimension—depth, or verticality—to Wilber's model of consciousness.

6. Magic, Mythic And Beyond

• Jean Piaget's theory of developmental psychology is used to describe the individual development of the contemporary human being.
• The "Pre/Trans Fallacy" is described. This is Wilber's term for "romantic" approaches, like deep ecology and ecofeminism, that mistake earlier and more exclusivist modes of being for more mature, more inclusive modes.

7. The Farther Reaches Of Human Nature

• Jürgen Habermas' account of socio-cultural development is used to describe collective human development.
• Vision-logic is described, a non-dominating, global awareness of holistic hierarchy, in which the pathological dissociations of Nature from Self, interiority from exteriority, and creativity from compassion are transformed into healthy differentiations.
• The validity claims of mystics are compared to Thomas Kuhn's account of scientific paradigms.

8. The Depths Of The Divine

• The accounts of four mystics are used to describe the possibilities for further individual spiritual development.

• The Transcendentalist Ralph Waldo Emerson on nature mysticism
• The Christian saint Teresa of Avila on deity mysticism
• Meister Eckhart on formless mysticism
• The Hindu guru Ramana Maharshi on nondual mysticism

Book Two

9. The Way Up Is The Way Down

• According to the Neo-Platonist Plotinus' nondual metaphysics, "Ascending" philosophies are those that embrace the One, or the Absolute. "Descending" philosophies are those that embrace the Many, or Plenitude. Both ascent (driven by Eros, or creativity) and descent (driven by Agape, or compassion) are indispensable for a healthy, whole view.
• Plato's metaphysics, which also included both ascending and descending drives, is described.
• Plotinus' attack on Gnosticism is described in order to trace differences between healthy and pathological approaches to ascent.

10. This-Wordly, Otherworldly

• Attempts to repair modernism's fractured and flattened worldview are described, especially Schelling's existential idealism.

11. Brave New World

• The liberating advantages as well as the spiritually crippling disadvantages of the modern, scientific mentality are described.

12. The Collapse Of The Kosmos

• Charles Taylor's account of the effects of the Enlightenment paradigm is used to show how vertical depth was collapsed into horizontal span and how the ascending drive was dissociated into the "Ego camp" (Kant's and Fichte's Transcendent Ego) and the "Eco camp" (Spinoza's deified Nature).
• Utilitarianism is described as mistaking sensory pleasure for Spirit, which ultimately resulted in a fixation on hedonism and sex in modern society.

13. The Dominance Of The Descenders

• Describes how the West tried to embrace the Many through science, but failed to embrace the One through mysticism.
• The result was the rise of Thanatos (Freud's death drive), and Phobos (existential fear), which are the respective pathological versions of Agape and Eros.

14. The Unpacking Of God

• Aspects of particular historical nondual views that could possibly heal the noetic fissures in the West are described, especially spiritual practice as understood by Zen & Dzogchen Buddhism.

At The Edge Of History

• Includes a meditation on Emptiness as the ground of Being in which all entities are ontologically healed.

despite the very massive agreement the book has triggered, I am aware of the criticism wilber has received from some academics - but most often if not always found these to be based on offended narcissism, especially when Wilber criticised the usual views of the critics achademic perspective. To say that wilber knows not what he is talking of, is silly - too massive his references and links to literature from most diverse fields of science and philosophy are given in this and other books. In fact he gains new perpsectives on known things by refusing to limit himself to following the orthodxy only. his method is to reduce all to the lowest common denominator - and use this as the basis of his explorations and arguments. This has two effects: it is very difiicult to find possibilities to attack his views, since they are basing on the LCD, and you become aware of how much we already know and agree on - despite all borders of sciences, traditions and disciplines.

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/CogSci/Walsh_on_Wilber_95.html
http://www.integralworld.net/rev/rev_ses_puhakka.html

[antikristuseke]

Id rather base my understanding of biology on one of the most tested theories in modern science rather than on bronze age mythology. As we were on posting youtube links here anyway, here are two series id like to recomend to everyone.


http://www.youtube.com/profile_video...derf00t&page=4
http://www.youtube.com/profile_video...potholer54&p=r

And here is something for people with more patience

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, just a word of caution, you post a poll like this, you are likely to get a lot of strong opinions, so don't flood me with "Reported posts".

[joea]

I said my piece so no problem from me. Skybird, looks very interesting that book.

[Tchocky]

The one that makes sense.

[Platapus]

I am an Evolutionist, but I believe the scientists have it backwards.

I believe that man is evolving TO the apes not from.

Think about it. What does a male gorilla do?

-Sleeps 16 hours a day
-Grabs some food when he is hungry
-Grabs a female Gorilla when he is "lonely"
-Goes back to sleep

What do I do as the "advanced" primate?

-I go to bed when I am not tired
-I get up when I am tired
-I work 40+ hours a week doing something I don't like, just in hopes that maybe, perhaps on a weekend I can:

--Sleep 16 hours a day
--Grab some food when I am hungry
--Grab a female when I am "lonely"

Higher life form? Yeah right, the Gorillas are laughing at me at this moment.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by joea

I said my piece so no problem from me. Skybird, looks very interesting that book.

It is! Once the basics got dealt with, the reading is smooth, and keeps you hooked. And as I said: It's hard to argue with a man who has a library in his brain.