Church of Scientology geting hit with a DDoS attack...

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by mrbeast

Your proof being?

Go Google up on American History, or search for similar posts in the GT forum. You will educate yourself. I'm not going to do your work for you since this has been hashed 20 times over here already. Now on to the beer thread.

-S

[elite_hunter_sh3]

The U.S.A , Canada and ALL OF EUROPE are CHRISTIAN, and should always be christian.. just like its been for the last 1000+ years...

[Skybird]

Being part of the christian cultural sphere and it's identity-forming inlfuence over history is one thing. A nation especially founded and "constructed" on christian prinicples to reflect Christian religion, is something different. And the latter the US is NOT. not by the constitution, not by the amendements. Not by the bill of rights. Not by oh so many quotes from the founding fathers and leading persons from the early founding time. Subman is raising wrong impressions there, or is mixing up these two things.

the following I just copy and paste from a doc file where I use to save all material that I stumble over and eventually will later use it, when I found it interesting at first read. If it is from one or several sources, I cannot say anymore. but I think it was just one site, some months ago. If you know it, post a link, I don't have it anymore.

Originally Posted by unknown

The Christian majority

It is true that that Christianity was the majority religion of the first european colonists, it was the majority religion at the time of the country's founding and has remained by far the dominant religion through the history of our country. There is no doubt that the country was settled by Christians and has been populated by a Christian majority.
The statement that is commonly made is that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation. To examine this statement we will look at the Declaration of independence, The Constitution, Treaty of Tripoly and


The Founding Fathers.

Declaration of Independence
There is no specific reference to Christianity or Jesus in the Declaration of independence. There are a few references to a 'Nature's God' who is the creator of life, giver of rights and 'supreme Judge of the world' but that is rather vague.
"the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"
Notice that it specifically describes 'Natures God', this is a more generic idea of God, this is god as nature.
"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
This does describes God as a creator of life and giver of rights but goes no further.
"appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions"
Here God is the 'Supreme Judge'.
It is expected that people of the time would speak of a god, there was little to no doubt at that time of God's existence, but there was plenty of doubt about Christianity among the framers. In order to justify their defiance of the King they had to invoke a higher authority and make the case that they were endowed with the higher power's blessing.


The Constitution

The constitution is a godless document. It mentions neither God, Jesus nor Christianity. It does however have a provision against requiring specific religious ideas as a qualification for office.
Article VI, Section 3
"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."


Treaty of Tripoli, article 11
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen..."


The Founders

Even though the majority of Americans at the time were Christians, several of the key figures in politics were Deists. They rejected the specific beliefs of religion and Christianity.

John Adams- 2nd president, Proposed and signed the Treaty of Tripoli
"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years."

letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted by Norman Cousins in In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1958), p. 106-7, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles."

letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
Thomas Jefferson- 3rd president, Drafted Declaration of Independence, Signer of Constitution, influential on 1st Amendment
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." [Notes on Virginia]
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" [Letter to von Humboldt, 1813].
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." [Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823]
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" [Letter to H. Spafford, 1814].
"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'" [Jefferson's Biography]

James Madison- 4th president, influential in the Constitutional Convention, Proposed the 1st Amendment
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." [April 1, 1774]
Benjamin Franklin- signer of Declaration of Independence, signer of Constitution
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
[Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758]
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." [Franklin's Autobiography]
George Washington - 1st president
After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said,
"Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."


Was the United States founded on Christian Principals?

Well let's look at some of the founding principals of the country:

Democracy?
The ideas of Democracy first began in pagan Greece in 5th century BC and later began to take hold in western europe in the late 1700's after religion's power in government had lessoned.

Secular government?
People can argue endlessly over the entanglements of religion and government but for the most part our government was set up as a secular government and has remained mostly separate from religious affairs.

Freedom of religion?
It is in no religion's interest to make it easy for people to join or explore other faiths.

Unequal rights?
Even thought the Declaration of Independence speaks of all men as being created equal, it was not taken literally. Blacks and Native Americans were not equal with whites, women were not equal with men and men who were not land owners were not equal with those who were.
Many of these ideas of inequality (slavery, subservient women) can be supported by the bible, most Christians today would not consider these as 'Christian Principals'. [Romans 7:2, Timothy 2:11, 1 Corinthians 14:34]

Slavery?
Like stated above, slavery is supported by the bible but most would not consider that a good Christian Principal. [Leviticus 25:44, Titus 2:9, Ephesians 6:5]


The Pledge of Allegiance

Original adopted October 12, 1892, 'Columbus Day'.
"I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Amended June 14, 1924, 'Flag Day' to include "the flag of the United States of America".
Amended in 1954, during the Cold War McCarthyism, at the request of Christian and anti-Communist groups to include "under God".
Challenged in 2003, Michael Newdow, a California Atheist, Doctor and Lawyer successfully sued over the words 'Under God' in the pledge of allegiance being recited in his daughters classroom. He won in the 9th circuit appeals court in a 2-1 decision. The US Supreme Court threw out the case on a technicality.


The 'G' word
The use of a capitalized 'G' in 'God" is commonly considered the specific Judeo-Christian god.
The use of 'God' may disclude all non Judeo-Christian believers, as well as polytheists (belief in more than one god) and agnostics (unsure of god).
The use of 'God' does disclude Atheists.


In God we trust?

The original motto

"E Pluribus Unum" Latin for "One from many"
In 1776, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson submit their design to congress for 'the Great Seal of the United States' with the motto "E Pluribus Unum".
In 1782, The Secretary of Congress submits a design of an eagle with a heart-shaped shield and a scroll bearing the motto "E Pluribus Unum".
The seal is approved and used on some coinage in 1795.


The new motto

In 1860, during the Civil War, Protestant denominations organize the 'National Reform Association', which aimed to amend the Constitution to "declare the nation's allegiance to Jesus Christ."
In 1861, Rev. M. R. Watkinson writes Salmon P. Chase, the Secretary of the Treasury, a letter suggesting "the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins". He suggests "God, Liberty, Law" as a motto on a "beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object".
In 1864, Congress approves "In God We Trust" for use on one-cent and two-cent coins.
In 1865, Congress acts to place the motto on all coins.
In 1957, the motto is first used on paper money.
On July 30, 1956, a bill is passed by congress and signed by the president declaring "In God We Trust" the national motto of the United States.


Separation of Church and State

The idea of 'Separation of Church and State' is not expressly written in the Constitution or the Bill of rights. Rather it is based on Jefferson's interpretation of the 'Establishment ' clause that James Madison introduced in the 1st amendment.


Article VI, Section 3 of the Constitution
"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

First Amendment to the Constitution
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Thomas Jefferson's interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802)
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

James Madison's summary of the First Amendment:
"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform" (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug. 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731)

More thoughts from Madison:
"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" [Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819]
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" [Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822].

Others

Hugo Black U.S. Supreme Court Justice (1886-1971)
"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)]
Warren Burger, Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court:
'The Lemon Test', in the majority opinion in Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971). It Determines if a law is permissible under the establishment clause of the First Amendment.
A law must have a secular purpose.
It must have a primary effect which neither advances nor inhibits religion.
It must avoid excessive entanglement of church and state.
Ulysses S. Grant
"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and the state forever separated."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
"The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool."


U.S. State Laws That discriminate against people who don't believe in a god

Arkansas
Maryland
Massachusetts
North Carolina
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas

Arkansas
"No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court."
Article 19, sect. 1 of the 1874 constitution

Maryland
"That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty.. nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefore either in this world or in the world to come." Bill of Rights: Article 36

Massachusetts
"As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: herefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily." Declaration of Rights: Article III

North Carolina
"The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God...." Constitution Article 6 Section 8

Pennsylvania
"No person who acknowledges the being of God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth".
Declaration of Rights Article 1 Section 4

South Carolina
"No person shall be eligible to the office of Governor who denies the existence of the Supreme Being..."
Article 4 Section 2

Tennessee
"No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state." Bill of Rights: Article 9 Section 4

Texas
"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being." Article 1 - Bill of Rights: Section 4

and again, this nice film which holds valid points relevant to this issue:


and finally, this link I had stored alongside the quoted text above, regarding Thomas Jefferson:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

[SUBMAN1]

You lost this one last time Skybird. Why? You know nothing of how America was formed, so why don't you bother searching on the subject and educate yourself.

-S

PS. My apologies. I forgot from the other thread that you forget everything past 8 hours from posting. :p

[Skybird]

If you have nothing truthful to say, better don't speak at all, Subman. A pathetic gait with feet wide apart does not make you strong, a wide opened mouth and a loud voice does not make you right, a rethoric trick does not mean you have an agument, and telling nonsens about what you want to have won and I should have lost does not give you credibility.

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by elite_hunter_sh3

The U.S.A , Canada and ALL OF EUROPE are CHRISTIAN, and should always be christian.. just like its been for the last 1000+ years...

Sounds like you don't know much about European history.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

If you have nothing truthful to say, better don't speak at all, Subman. A pathetic gait with feet wide apart does not make you strong, a wide opened mouth and a loud voice does not make you right, a rethoric trick does not mean you have an agument, and telling nonsens about what you want to have won and I should have lost gives you no more credibility.

No - again you aren't seeing the big picture (imagine that! I'm not sure you are capable either). There are three things you post about on this forum, and you are completely predictable in everything you ultimately post. They follow these lines exactly:

1. Anti USA
2. Anti Religion in any form
3. Pro Germany

Outside of these three things, you completely forget what other people have posted before you. This makes you incredibly predictable, but also a broken record. This is the problem. This makes me waste more effort on your hot air, only to have to fight the same fight in the future on the exact same grounds. It's not only annoying because I am convinced your memory is about nill, but I am starting to sound like a broken record myself in wasting my time.

So ultimately, this is a problem about you, and not about religion in general. That is the problem.

I mean, you'd be a head case for S. Frued even! This one should get you - One thing I bet you didn't know about Frued is that he struggled with religion to the end of his life, because he beleived in god, yet he wrote against god. This is especially true near the end of his life. Look that one up - should consume you for many hours on end since you like to bring his anti religion teachings to this forum!

Anyway, see my point? I've probably wasted much effort in typing this too however. 8 Hours from now, it will be lost in space in your mind.

-S

PS. Don't get me wrong though. I like a lot of your posts, such as those on tanks and tank sims in the Tank forum, just that the three topics above are getting old.

[mrbeast]

Subman, I have to say your post above smacks of arrogance and condesention.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by mrbeast

Subman, I have to say your post above smacks of arrogance and condesention.

And his don't? Oh please!

-S

[mrbeast]

I haven't read any posts by him were he tells someone to effectively stop wasting his time because hes right end of discussion.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Redbrow

I used to be a preacher and for 27 years was Christian ..........

As an old Christian I was under COMMAND from Yahweh the War God to preach the word or face having the blood of the lost dripping from my soul. .

Yahweh stands for Creator of the Universe not the "War God" I'll let the Lord rebuke you ... I just wanted to correct you.

[Skybird]

Subman, care less about the splinter in my eye, and start trying to remove the big beam in your own. Because by every turning of yourself, you hit other people's head and face with your beam, and yourself you cannot see anything with that damn thing, too. That's why there often is so much noise where you appear. I don't need noise, i have very good ears. but if I should find you worth to listen to, you need to have something more valuable to show than this kind of behavior you just have illustrated - once again. This is where your handicap lies. Instead: tricks, rethorics, and accusing others to suffer from your own deficits.

You may get some immediate satisfaction from scoring the cheap shot, having a quick "joke", distort or ignore unwelcomed feedback or counterargument, and blame others of what you do wrong yourself - you can admire yourself by doing all so cleverly in these regards, okay, if that is what saves your day, have fun.

Just don't expect me to take that serious.

Oh and thanks for the couple of additonal barely hidden offendings. My collection of your efforts regarding these is already quite impressive. Always flattering to know that somebody puts all his potentials into letting me know.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by geetrue

Yahweh stands for Creator of the Universe not the "War God" I'll let the Lord rebuke you ... I just wanted to correct you.

the tradition of the old desert god of Jews and Christian knows god to be the origin of a lot of commands, promises and orders that sent people to war, and on mission to conquer and submit others. Historically, the god of the Judaic-Chroistian traditon derives from the old family (category) of so-called (at least in German) "Vulcan gods".

This class of gods were so obsessed with their patriarchalic egocentrism and with making people obeying to their demands and constantly threatening penalties on them if they don't, that their hobby of creating universes ranks just as one amongst others.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Do we really need to rehash this again? I've already proved more than once that that US of A is founded of Christian principles. Search on it in the GT forums and you will once again find the same conclusion. Tired of Rehashing - it is getting old.

-S

And I've already addressed the fact that the Christian governments of the early colonies were every bit as restrictive and beligerent as the ones they came here to escape from; as well as pointing out that religious freedom was founded in the face of those Christian leaders, not by them or through them. You've never answered my posts in those thread, and you've said many things, but "proved" nothing.

[CCIP]

Hay guys, what's going on in this thread?

Meanwhile, someone forgot to bring up this:



That's who's behind this little ongoing anti-scientology campaign :p