In memoriam - my first casualties ever

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Originally Posted by TomcatMVD

I'd say that's not fair. The Kaleun must assume all responsibilities.
Unless you WO was Bernard, in which case, such an opportunity to get rid of him could not be wasted!:hmm:

You are probably right. I must reconsider the issue. The fact is I never liked the guy, so I'll probably just push him into water when noone sees and blame him for all the problems on the boat.

And more seriously - what would happen in real life after such an accident/incident? Would anyone be charged or punished, like the captain? What was the usual way of dealing with the situation? Are there any records? I ask because if it's the U-Boot commander who would be held responsible for the deaths, I should end my career after returning to base with "jailed" status (at least that would be a bit better than "sunk", "lost" or "killed in action").

[TomcatMVD]

Don't know if it helps picture things better

Q. What steps did you, as Supreme Commander of the U-boats, take when you heard of such a case, a case in which a U-boat had transgressed its orders, even if by mistake?
A. The main thing was the preventive measures, and that was done through training the U-boat Commanders to be thorough, and to investigate quietly and carefully before taking action. Moreover, this training had already been carried on, even in peacetime, so that our U-boat organization bore the motto: "We are a respectable firm."
The second measure was that during the war every commander, before leaving port, and every commander after returning from his mission, had to report to me personally. Before leaving port he had to be briefed by me.
Q. I beg your pardon, Grand Admiral. That did not continue when you were Supreme Commander, did it? A. That was limited after 1943, after I had become Supreme Commander. Even then it did continue. In any case, it was the definite rule during my time as Supreme Commander of U- boats, so that a commander's mission was considered completed and satisfactory only after he had reported to me in full detail. If, on such an occasion, I could establish negligence, then I made my decision according to the nature of the case, as to whether disciplinary action or court martial proceedings and punishment had to take place.

[Sailor Steve]

Here is the reality: middle of the night, captain is asleep in his bunk. Office Of the Deck doesn't see bigger ship coming. Ship is rammed and sunk - 74 lives lost. It was the captain who was court-martialled and lost his command.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Frank_E._Evans_(DD-754)

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Thanks for the link, Sailor Steve. But I think we should not compare US Navy to U-Bootsflotte too easily. These two are two different worlds as far as I understand history. There is also a significant difference in these two situations - as stated in the USS Frank E. Evans article, a "junior officer who was not qualified to stand watch, having failed at his previous board" led the ship to collision, while in U-52's case the WO was a trained and experienced officr who was to take command of his own boat in a month or two (and I really planned to have him transfered).

On the other hand I understand the rule "the commander is always responsible for everything that happens on his ship", so I'm ready to be punished (as a part of roleplay thing). As there is no in-game court or a BdU that could make the decision, the only way is to ask you - I mean the community - to play BdU's (or jury's) role and decide whether I should:
- stay at command,
- be downgraded (I mean opposite for promoted) and to what rank,
- be expelled from the U-Bootsflotte,
- be transfered to a less responsible station (like training flotilla),
- be trialed and sentenced (to: death, konzentrationslager, jail, any other appropriate punishment).
If you, Sailor Steve, would agree to become a jury in this case, it would be an honour for me. I'd be glad to answer any question, provide any information or evidence, and I'd of course obey any jury's judgment.

TomcatMVD - big thanks for the quote. What's the source of it? A historical background like this is very helpful, as it lets understand the way of thinking and making decisions by people, not only the cold facts.

[kenijaru]

If you were to be transfered, i'd say it would NOT be to a training flotilla, but rather, a desktop job in an office doing boring and tedious paperwork :S


i'd like to preside the defence of the watch officer. (as part of a RPing... this could be nice, we could start a new fashion )

[Jimbuna]

Brings to mind how Kretschmer was captured. His boat was on the surface during the night and he was below writing logs. The boat was suprised by an escort and the junior officer on watch did not carry out his Kaleuns standing orders which were to try to escape on the surface.
The boat dived, received depth charge damage, was forced to the surface etc. etc.

[Sniper_Fox]

its not the watch officers job to command the boats manouvers... thats the captains job...


its you that needs to be on trial!

[TomcatMVD]

Originally Posted by Abd_von_Mumit

TomcatMVD - big thanks for the quote. What's the source of it? A historical background like this is very helpful, as it lets understand the way of thinking and making decisions by people, not only the cold facts.

http://www.nizkor.org/

Found it by googling, it's a transcript of part of the Nuremberg trials

[NealT]

Originally Posted by Abd_von_Mumit

Thanks for the link, Sailor Steve. But I think we should not compare US Navy to U-Bootsflotte too easily. These two are two different worlds as far as I understand history. There is also a significant difference in these two situations - as stated in the USS Frank E. Evans article, a "junior officer who was not qualified to stand watch, having failed at his previous board" led the ship to collision, while in U-52's case the WO was a trained and experienced officr who was to take command of his own boat in a month or two (and I really planned to have him transfered).

On the other hand I understand the rule "the commander is always responsible for everything that happens on his ship", so I'm ready to be punished (as a part of roleplay thing). As there is no in-game court or a BdU that could make the decision, the only way is to ask you - I mean the community - to play BdU's (or jury's) role and decide whether I should:
- stay at command,
- be downgraded (I mean opposite for promoted) and to what rank,
- be expelled from the U-Bootsflotte,
- be transfered to a less responsible station (like training flotilla),
- be trialed and sentenced (to: death, konzentrationslager, jail, any other appropriate punishment).
If you, Sailor Steve, would agree to become a jury in this case, it would be an honour for me. I'd be glad to answer any question, provide any information or evidence, and I'd of course obey any jury's judgment.

TomcatMVD - big thanks for the quote. What's the source of it? A historical background like this is very helpful, as it lets understand the way of thinking and making decisions by people, not only the cold facts.

In the spirit of doing what you asked? My answer is...

TO THE EASTERN FRONT FOR YOU!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Sailor Steve]

If it was me, I'd make a deal with the officer in question: Advise him not to get so close next time, and let it go at that. Nobody gets blamed, and everybody goes home happy (except the unfortunately dead sailors, of course).

Of course I speak from the vantage point of experience - during the gunnery training mission I got too close to a tanker, which then exploded, killing myself and everyone else on the bridge, including one of the Kriegsmarine's most beloved teachers. I wish I could have lived to see the look on the faces of the rest of the crew when they came up to see what happened!:rotfl:

[TomcatMVD]

Does shrapnel damage the U-boat on stock SHIII?

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Originally Posted by NealT

In the spirit of doing what you asked? My answer is...

TO THE EASTERN FRONT FOR YOU!

There is no such a thing in February '40, Poland has been liberated allready. Now we are struggling to liberate France, but that' West undoubtedly.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

If it was me, I'd make a deal with the officer in question: Advise him not to get so close next time, and let it go at that. Nobody gets blamed, and everybody goes home happy (except the unfortunately dead sailors, of course).

But there is still the moment of going back to base and reporting at BdU. After rethinking the cse I'll skip the WO part and I'll just say "WE have been to close", takieng all responsibility. At the same time I'm going to ask for the WO to be transfered.

I hope BdU will be more excited with the 97k tonnage sunk than the 3 lost men.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Of course I speak from the vantage point of experience - during the gunnery training mission I got too close to a tanker, which then exploded, killing myself and everyone else on the bridge, including one of the Kriegsmarine's most beloved teachers. I wish I could have lived to see the look on the faces of the rest of the crew when they came up to see what happened!:rotfl: