Bismarck, Yamato or Arizona

[Mush Martin]

I actually had a mod for that model in Freelancer (nondriveable)
M

[Sailor Steve]

The question was which of those three was the best. No doubt, Yamato was the most powerful, and had the best protection. Arizona was a First World War retread, and wouldn't have stood a chance against either of the other two.

[USS Sea Tiger]

Yamato, Big Guns, Well made ship, but POOR damage control. and POOR gunnery

Arizona, Useless by WWII Ship to ship action except as a shell catcher to buy the rest of the fleet time .

Bis ,, Fire control was good, damage control was great, Crew training was great. If she could close rage on the Yamatp, then she could kill her.

Other, A wide open for debate, Iowas could challenge and be the odds on bet for any of these,

my conclusion, take a type XXI and make them all beg for mercy.

[danurve]

I think there is a romance with these steel marvels regardless of their origin.

Had to vote other. Durring a second deployment our battle group sailed with BB-62. And so that my be a slight preference.

Thought of tieing in an ex-wife joke as option-other, eh.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by K-9

Ok First time the BBs met in battle was during the Chrimean war. The russians had a bunch of mixed gun dreadnaughts, the Japs had the more modern big gun only BBs, the Japs mopped the Ruskies butts.

I think you mean the Battle of Tsushima Strait, part of the Russo-Japanese war of 1904-05.

The Crimean war was in the Crimea, the peninsular in the Black Sea area, in the 1850s. Featured an alliance of Britain, France and Turkey to stop Russian expansion into Turkey.

(also, when you say dreadnoughts, perhaps you mean ironclads? Dreadnought was the name of the first true 20th century style battleship, designed by admiral Fisher of the RN)

Also, could you tell me more, or give me some links, about this chance of war between the US and Britain of which you speak? I've never heard of this before and it sounds most intriguing. What, apart from pure arms race and the desire to be the strongest, were the sources of friction?

[Cohaagen]

Originally Posted by K-9

2nd Battle of Jutland WWI. The Germans, though vastly outnumbered and outgunned, managed to out manuver the British battle fleet, scoring some very serious hits. The Brits had not armored the decks of thier BB's and as a result suffered a couple of very serious hits. The Germans however would never sortie thier fleet again for the entire war and thier ships would later be scuttled in Scapa Flow after the war.

I think you might have the wrong end of the stick there, mate - I can't think of anyone, historian or amateur, who thinks that the High Seas Fleet outmaneuvered the British. On the contrary, the Germans were consistently outmaneuvered and spent most of their time running away. Scheer's plan to lure out the Grand Fleet and destroy it piecemeal failed, and it was only the robustness of their ships that prevented the Germans from suffering greater losses.

The problem with British ships was not armour (I can assure you that they did have horizontal armour plate) but the shell handling of the Rosyth battlecruiser squadron who, being forward-based, disregarded safety procedures which were enforced on the main battle fleet, leading directly to the catastrophic explosions at Jutland. HMS Lion, not much better armoured than the earlier BCs, stood up to a huge pounding and was back in service relatively quickly.

Warspite? Greatest battleship of all time, easily. Read up on the Battle of Cape Matapan, just one of her numerous actions - an entire Italian heavy cruiser squadron destroyed in less than five minutes at point-blank range by Warspite and the other QE-class ships. Three CAs, two destroyers and about 2,500 dead in not much more time than it takes to write it

By the way, I thought the Jim Cameron doc was pretty suspect - he seemed to be implying that KGV and Rodney were incapable of penetrating Bismarck's armour belt, not mentioning of course that the conning tower and each of the turret barbettes (armoured to about 13") were pierced and destroyed in quick order. Bismarck's crew have said that opening valves and seacocks was simply a normal part of abandoning ship...warships are not abandoned unless all hope of salvage is lost. Cameron seems to suffer from that rather creepy habit of fetishising of the German war machine. I'm sad that so many German sailors were lost, but in a choice between that and the deaths of potentially hundreds or thousands of British, Canadian, American, etc. merchant seamen...well, **** 'em.

The German surface fleet always had pretensions toward grandeur right from the beginning but, unlike the U-boat waffe, didn't excel at very much except scuttling their own ships.

[Jimbuna]

I have read this thread most avidly, but in the end I voted 'other'.

Whilst I appreciate the pros and cons of both the Yamato and Bismarck, and whilst failing to see how even the most patriotic amongst us (by that I mean our American cousins) can even begin to compare either of the above with a WWI vessel.
I have opted for the Iowa class as the best overall....the only one that could ever have a post war future, regardless of survival, since Japan and Germany would have been forced to surrender any surviving capital ships.
There is however a part of me that would have liked to have seen the Vanguard given a stay of execution in the post war years to see how her future may have evolved when compared to that of the Iowa class.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cohaagen

The problem with British ships was not armour (I can assure you that they did have horizontal armour plate) but the shell handling of the Rosyth battlecruiser squadron who, being forward-based, disregarded safety procedures which were enforced on the main battle fleet, leading directly to the catastrophic explosions at Jutland. HMS Lion, not much better armoured than the earlier BCs, stood up to a huge pounding and was back in service relatively quickly.

Excellent summary, to which I would just like to add a little. According to John Campbell's Jutland: An Analysis Of The Fighting, the main reason for the disregard in safety procedure was the fact that the squadron was the one which chased down the German squadron at Dogger Bank the previous year. They noted that the Germans were firing faster, and decided that they could do the same if they pinned the anti-flash doors between turret and magazine open. There is no evidence that it helped, but Indefatigable, Invincible and Queen Mary were all observed to take turret hits shortly before exploding. HMS Lion also took a major turret hit, and is presumed to have been save solely due to the quick action of major Francis Harvey, who, despite his ultimately fatal wounds, managed to close the magazine doors and flood the turret.

[Wulfmann]

I have studied battleship design and history since about 1960.

There are different ways to grade these and since we are talking WWI (you can not compare a 1965 F1 car to a 2207. Can you?)

Warpsite is the epitome of the spirit of the Royal Navy. She was in so many places and never failed to deliver. Even when they disgracefully decided to scrap her she broke free and embedded herself on the rocks defiant to the end.

Bismarck by deed, no doubt of all modern warships she sailed behind enemy lines (not under) blasted the symbol of the Royal Navy (Who's name was forever changed from "The Mighty Hood" to "Sunk by the Bismarck"!!!) and died much like the gallant 300 at Thermopylae.
While Cameron is off IMO as Bismarck was actually sinking the fact the crew scuttled the ship was to prevent the disgrace of being boarded. He (Captain Lindenmann asked Bismarck be so addressed) sits proudly on the ocean floor majestically. More movies, TV documentaries books articles have been written about this warship than any other in history.

Best, technically IMO, the 4 Iowa class battleships. of all completed battleships.
Had the H-39 been built it would (???) have been in the same category.
Yamato was over sized but mediocre. Her 18.1 inch guns were big but about equal to the excellent 16/55s of the Iowa. In a straight fight I would bet on Iowa. Superior fire control, able to dictate the range at her choosing but luck would really be the deciding factor in the end.
Vanquard was a great design but here WWI main armament was vastly inferior to Iowa's main guns. V was the best the Royal Navy ever built but its like getting the fastest Indy racer to the track a week after the race.
Bismarck was from an earlier class and one size smaller so not fair to compare. Bis and the South Dakota would have been a good match and Richelieu with a German or British crew would also have been their equal.

Best capital ship of WWI, IMO was the Derrflinger and more than any other ship pointed the way to the modern battleship. As to deeds well Derrflinger certainly took a punch and delivered knock out blows but all the German battlecruisers were of the same spirit and that unit of Hippers was ton for ton the baddest bunch in WWI.

I spent a day on the Texas and got a special inside tour of her. Went down into the magazines, even sat in the captain's chair.
Too bad more are not preserved and that takes us back to Warspite the battleship that earned the right above all others to be preserved. Sad and she would have been better off sunk maybe where ships of similar stature survive say 200 miles or so west of Brest!

Wulfmann

[Wulfmann]

As to Jutland German ships also took turret hits and even had magazine fires that certainly destroyed British ships.
The big difference was German powder was in brass cases no silk bags so there was extra time to fight the blaze or flood the magazine and save the ship.
The German learned the lessons of Doggerbank the Brits did not!

Wulfmann

[joea]

Are you talking WWI or WWII? You're mixing up ships from both wars.

[linerkiller]

Surely Bismarck, esthetically she was really a princess of the seas, also if ships like Yamato or Iowa would have easily outrunned and outgunned her

But my favourite warship was the WWI battlecruiser Derfflinger.

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by Cohaagen

Warspite? Greatest battleship of all time, easily. Read up on the Battle of Cape Matapan, just one of her numerous actions - an entire Italian heavy cruiser squadron destroyed in less than five minutes at point-blank range by Warspite and the other QE-class ships. Three CAs, two destroyers and about 2,500 dead in not much more time than it takes to write it

Warspite had a reputation for excellent gunnery control too. In one action in 1940 Warspite managed to land hits on the Italian BB Giulio Cesare at the extreme range of 26,000yds!

[cheese123]

Arizona cause it sunk

[Sailor Steve]

Calling Warspite the greates belies the fact that one of her sisters, HMS Barham, was sunk by only three torpedoes from U-331. That Warspite survived more battles and recieved more awards than any other battleship attests mostly to crew quality and luck.

How would Warspite have fared in a one-on-one battle with any of the other ships listed?