Sinking lifeboats?

[clayp]

Originally Posted by tomoose

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).

japan didnt abide by anything except their animalistic ways.....

[Doolittle81]

Originally Posted by tomoose

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).

My last post on this subject....these threads seldom result in anything positive...or at least minds/opinions are not substantially changed. I could be wrong.

Anyway, with regard to the tomoose post above, I believe there is very little evidence of Japan abiding by any provisions of the Geneva convention, whatsoever, in action/fact or in principle. Japan was not a signatory to the 1929 Geneva convention, though that does not excuse them for ignoring the principles, thereof.

I would suggest a more thorough reading of the Documentation provided via the link in Ducimus' post....specifically by those who profess moral equivalency or equivalency of scale between allied and Japanese 'war crimes'.

Given the inital thrust of this Thread, 'what to do about ship-sinking survivors', I would suggest that some of you might try downloading and enabling a sorta "Mod" I recently made. It's a simple substitution of a new INTRO movie, a sequence in which somewhat relates to the subject at hand. The movie swap can be done manually or via JSGME, totally reversible. You can even view it offline, so to speak, in WMP. Here's link to the thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126447

[-Pv-]

I seem to recall in the Morton life boat incident he was fired on from one of the life boats before he opened fire on them. I've not yet felt compelled to fire on them. I'm more interested in clearing the area before help shows help.
I post this one day after Pearl Harbor day (if we want to rant on war crimes.)
-Pv-

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Mikkow

I've been lurking for some time on and off, and I understand you have been in some kind of war. I suspected the Vietnam war, is this correct? Are there any old threads where you share any parts of your experience or do you prefer not to speak of it?

I enlisted in the navy in 1969 as I preferred it to being drafted into the army. Yes, it was VietNam. They put me through radio school, then flew me to Subic Bay in the Philippines. After a trip in two different fleet oilers, I finally reached my destroyer. We had three main tasks: escort for aircraft carriers (mainly the Ranger and Bon Homme Richard), Search-and-Rescue (just like "lifeguard duty" in the game - pilots with damaged planes tried to reach the ocean where we would pick them up; it never happened though, except for a Phantom crew who ditched just shy of Ranger when we were technically on escort duty), and fire support. This last consisted of us anchoring offshore and playing mobile artillery for the marines. After a firing session they would send us a status report - including body counts. That part wasn't much fun.

And, do you have any thoughts about this topic? The public? What about connections from past wars, painting over the ugly parts and connecting it to present day conflicts?

There were many discussions about lifeboats not being in SH3. I'm surprised but glad they appear in SH4. They add to the feel of the game, seeing people leaving a sinking ship.

[Doolittle81]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I enlisted in the navy in 1969 as I preferred it to being drafted into the army. Yes, it was VietNam. They put me through radio school, then flew me to Subic Bay in the Philippines. After a trip in two different fleet oilers, I finally reached my destroyer. We had three main tasks: escort for aircraft carriers (mainly the Ranger and Bon Homme Richard), Search-and-Rescue (just like "lifeguard duty" in the game - pilots with damaged planes tried to reach the ocean where we would pick them up; it never happened though, except for a Phantom crew who ditched just shy of Ranger when we were technically on escort duty), and fire support. ....

Small world. I frequently flew over the Gulf of Tonkin (and Laos, Cambodia, SVN, South China Sea, etc) from 1967 through 1974. Couldn't fly into (over) the Gulf unless the carrier was on station and providing CAP. If things had gone askew, so to speak, you might have been fishing me out of the sea.

I also did a week long 'orientation cruise' in 1962 aboard the Ranger. Believe it or not, I got a bit queasy...not SeaSick, just queasy. On a Carrier, for God's sake! What ship could be more stable. I knew the Navy wasn't for me! USAF all the way.

[seaniam81]

I'm going to say both sides did stuff nobody should be proud of. The British went out and fire bombed german cities, while gemany bombed british cities. The US went out and locked up people of "asian" decent and put them into camps.

[tomoose]

For those that want to delve a bit more into the various Conventions and other agreements;

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm

http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Pre...ourteen_Points

[kylesplanet]

Originally Posted by Mikkow

I've been a keen student of psychology (including propaganda), sociology and history most of my life. And it is clear that if people knew more about history, the present wouldn't be as terrible as it is.

From a non-american and non-japanese perspective, I can honestly not see that much of a difference between the Allies and the Japanese in the pacific. They were all various imperial powers of varying ambition who just happened to clash. Their behaviour in the wars wasn't much different either (yes, some were worse than others, but none were good).

War paths are too readily acceptable by the public. Maybe if they truly understood more what real war is about.

Btw, I just read this great link on the topic, how the allies pain themselves out to have been the good guys completely relating to WW2 and about atrocities of both sides, etc. Just what this topic is about: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...480178,00.html

I don't really care for the moral equivilance drawn there between the allies and the Japanese. No one wants to fight a war but sometimes unavoidable. It's always easy to infer "Americans are imperialist" it happens all the time but what if we sat it out?

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill

[ETR3(SS)]

Well imho, the lifeboats were an unesessary addition to the game. And then to make them destrucable? Personally I would have liked to see seagulls that I could shoot and kill, never was there such a more foul creature than the seagull.

[kylesplanet]

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

Well imho, the lifeboats were an unesessary addition to the game. And then to make them destrucable? Personally I would have liked to see seagulls that I could shoot and kill, never was there such a more foul creature than the seagull.

I tried to shoot those annoying things myself.:rotfl:

[ATR-42]

You guys are going to have to correct me on the details here...

im sure most of you have read Silent Running, I recently finished it...

The Jack picked up a prisoner or two while on patrol. I was shocked when i read this. The captain was reluctant to pick up any more but the one or two that were on board were well fed and put to work. The author even noted they gained noticeable weight after enjoying the food! The crew put them to work polishing the brass in the forward torpedo rooom . And again he noted that for the first time since commissioning you could eat off the torpedo room floors and brass.

He mentioned his sadness when they returned to port and they handed off the prisoners to the marines and how they were treated in the short time he could visually see them being walked off the plank.

[LeafsFan]

I could do without the lifeboats as well.

HB

[Ducimus]

All im going to add, is one incident of lifeboat shooting does not equal the multitude of worse offenses commited by the enemy at the time.

I think the whole war time attrocities/morton argument, is to somehow equate 1 or 2 instances to being the equivlant of 5 or 10 (or more) instances - most of which are much more horrfiic.

I don't understand the point behind the argument much. Is it to say we were all bad to make japan look better? To equate the US with Japan so we look that much more evil? To say one is no better then the other? 1 + 0 does not equal 10.

[clayp]

My last word on the subject.....I WILL SHOOT THEM EVERY CHANCE i GET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elder-Pirate]

I don't mind the life boats in SH4 but I do think the DEVs could have at least coded the Japanese ships to pick them up and not just sail off and leave them to drown.

Since you have one it needs the other.