Depth Charge Lethality Poll

[Reaves]

I'd say 3 and D but 2 and D would be better then stock.


I wouldn't want the game to be too hard if you know what I mean.

[tater]

Well, when I finally dial stuff in, I might make a couple versions available. An overall mod to the dat/sim/eqp files for the ships that all use, and a couple versions of the zon with different EF values etc. Just curious what people think so I know how to dial 'em in.

I should add the caveat that single DCs WILL kill you right now if they are in virtual contact (inside MinRadius) and the boat is DEEP. Then it will domino since the boat will instantly be below crush depth. For this I am assuming only moderate depth, perhaps 40-50m (IJN claimed a single 250kg GP bomb turned DC would kill a sub---about equal to their 162kg warhead type 2, maybe less cause bombs have more jacket, less explosive than DCs).

[CCIP]

Personally, what I really miss a lot of times is a chance to die slowly. I've no objection to direct or near-direct hits being very deadly, but I'd prefer it'd end with my boat flooding uncontrollably while I try to blow ballast and lose the battle than just having the control taken away instantly and the boat plunging down. :hmm:

At distance, I'd like minor compartmental damage to be a bit more frequent.

[Reaves]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Personally, what I really miss a lot of times is a chance to die slowly. I've no objection to direct or near-direct hits being very deadly, but I'd prefer it'd end with my boat flooding uncontrollably while I try to blow ballast and lose the battle than just having the control taken away instantly and the boat plunging down. :hmm:

At distance, I'd like minor compartmental damage to be a bit more frequent.

I agree with this. In older sub games (i'm thinking it might have been SH2) I remember receiving major flooding in my bow compartments which caused my sub to slowly sink. Luckily I was in shallow enough water to hit the bottom and be able to slowly repair. I haven't had this happen in SH4 although that could just be the luck of the draw.

Either way, i'll never forget that moment. I thought I was done for but someone was looking out for me.

[kapitan_zur_see]

Originally Posted by Reaves

I agree with this. In older sub games (i'm thinking it might have been SH2) I remember receiving major flooding in my bow compartments which caused my sub to slowly sink. Luckily I was in shallow enough water to hit the bottom and be able to slowly repair. I haven't had this happen in SH4 although that could just be the luck of the draw.

Either way, i'll never forget that moment. I thought I was done for but someone was looking out for me.

Yep, i very much agree with this! I miss such moments so much in SH4&SH3 although it occured to me in SH4 some very few times in somwhat shallow waters... For me, the most interesting subsim regarding damages management was by far SH1. Never found a subsim getting that fun with it. I remember patrol in sh1 where i got plunged to seabed due to heavy damage and Heavy flooding and still being alive having a thin chance of repearing the sub. Crew was working several hours, you were seing parts gradually being slowly repaired, several hours later pumps were repaired, then water would gradually be pumped out of compartiments whilst lowering the few pressured air level remaining. All of this would take times while CO2 level would come to raise to a worrying level adding to the tension. I remember sometimes even a fire would light up in a compartiment adding to the extent of damages to repair and eating valuable oxygen. Then, after a struggle of several hours, everything was almost repaired and your sub would gradually come to the surface as buoyancy becomes positive... All of this made up for a tremendous experience where you had the feeling of living that famous repair scene in das boot.
I still wonders why it has never been done near that good in SH3 and SH4... Sometimes there's regression compared to old so called less complex games...
And that's a problem since i always found damage struggles to be a very immersive factor in a subsim. It takes an important place as it makes up for very dramatic moments. Movie directors know this very well and you often have this kind of scene in a sub movie

[tater]

I completely agree about nasty damage being immersive. In flight sims some of my more memorable flights have been nursing a damaged ship home after getting badly shot up.

That said, this is not about that. Severe damage would still of course be possible from DCs that do not explode in virtual contact with your sub.

The point of the poll was that in SH4 a single DC NEVER kills you, regardless of where it goes off. Navies all around the world were under the impression that within a few meters would likely kill any sub. Were they all wrong?

I'm just looking at boundary values, really.

I'd like to see "skin hits" on your sub be very likely deadly. That doesn't mean you need to instantly sink, it just means that the damage WILL sink you at some point most likely.

So a single DC shacks you, and you start flooding, and find yourself settled on the bottom, desperately trying to repair it before it's too late—and there is a good chance you will not succeed. Meanwhile, you better hope Tojo needs a hearing aid, cause even a near miss will likely finish you for sure.

Another boat manages to dodge and weave, and the closest DCs are between 6 and 10m. The crew is rattled, and the sub likely needs an overhaul back at Pearl, but she'll make it home.

I'm interested because in addition to being realistic (I think), it certainly encourages realistic behavior on the part of the skipper. If you fight the boat with the thought that even a single good DC hit will likely kill you, you are more cautious,and you take a more active role in avoiding the enemy during DC attacks than you would when you know it might take 2-4 very close DCs to actually sink you. Particularly if the escorts are modded to have realistic numbers of ashcans.

Originally Posted by tater

I completely agree about nasty damage being immersive. In flight sims some of my more memorable flights have been nursing a damaged ship home after getting badly shot up.

That said, this is not about that. Severe damage would still of course be possible from DCs that do not explode in virtual contact with your sub.

The point of the poll was that in SH4 a single DC NEVER kills you, regardless of where it goes off. Navies all around the world were under the impression that within a few meters would likely kill any sub. Were they all wrong?

I'm just looking at boundary values, really.

I'd like to see "skin hits" on your sub be very likely deadly. That doesn't mean you need to instantly sink, it just means that the damage WILL sink you at some point most likely.

So a single DC shacks you, and you start flooding, and find yourself settled on the bottom, desperately trying to repair it before it's too late—and there is a good chance you will not succeed. Meanwhile, you better hope Tojo needs a hearing aid, cause even a near miss will likely finish you for sure.

Another boat manages to dodge and weave, and the closest DCs are between 6 and 10m. The crew is rattled, and the sub likely needs an overhaul back at Pearl, but she'll make it home.

I'm interested because in addition to being realistic (I think), it certainly encourages realistic behavior on the part of the skipper. If you fight the boat with the thought that even a single good DC hit will likely kill you, you are more cautious,and you take a more active role in avoiding the enemy during DC attacks than you would when you know it might take 2-4 very close DCs to actually sink you. Particularly if the escorts are modded to have realistic numbers of ashcans.

It's really not hard to get what you want, Tater. Just reduce DC blast damage radius, but greatly increase DC blast damage. I think think that is what you might be looking for. If you increase DC blast damage enough, then a single DC would be enough to eventually sink a sub from flooding or whatever. But a lot of other compartment and equipment settings need to be adjusted also. I have a lot of experience with this in modding SH3. You should be able to get what you want by doing it this way.

[tater]

This poll is for "shacks." Direct hits inside what was considered lethal (6m) and in virtual contact (well within the game's MinRadius value).

The distant damage is then semi-easy to tweak with MaxRadius.

Right now there is no such thing as a single hit kill on a sub. Just doesn't happen at moderate depth (it will if you are near crush depth).

Large MaxRadius values make a single hit do damage to more compartments, which increases "contact" lethality, but not enough. If the EFs are upped a lot, and the radius is still huge, they become too deadly presumably.

Oddly, I made some DCs with the MinEF at 499 and the MaxEF at 500, and still didn't get 1 hit kills.

tater

[tater]

1st post edited:

FATAL means the either an instant spinning death screen, damage that REQUIRES blowing tanks to surface, or a mission kill (no more engines, props, fuel, etc).

Again, this is only for "skin kills" where the bomb detonates in virtual contact for part 1, and the presumed lethal radius for part 2.


tater

Originally Posted by CCIP

Personally, what I really miss a lot of times is a chance to die slowly. I've no objection to direct or near-direct hits being very deadly, but I'd prefer it'd end with my boat flooding uncontrollably while I try to blow ballast and lose the battle than just having the control taken away instantly and the boat plunging down. :hmm:

At distance, I'd like minor compartmental damage to be a bit more frequent.

I also have to agree with CCIP. The instant death screen sucks bad. I modded the U-boat armor levels in SH3 for my latest mod to where the U-boat will not be instantly destroyed followed by a death screen. Now, the U-boat will only be destroyed by hull integrity reaching zero from being dragged down by flooding and being crushed or being blown to pieces on the surface. An instant death screen from one close depth charge may be the most realistic, but it sure as hell isn't fun for a game.

But I agree with Tater. One or two very close depth charges should be enough to kill a sub. Just not instantly.

[Ducimus]

RE : instant death

I think the cause in this might be.. i suspect, some of the fundamental mechanics have changed in code.

For instance "crash speed". It used to function as a variable about how fast, or slow your sub bleed hitpoints when below crush depth. Set it for real low number, you sub crushed real slow, and you had time to recover.

It does not do this in Sh4. The game seems to making an arbitrary decision that once you've been blow crush depth for X amount of time - game over, period. Going below crush depth, i did not see any H.I loss at all. just 0% damage and then BAM 100%, with nothing in between.

Maybe the speed is still too high and i need to slow it down more? but i doubt that will solve anything except to delay the abitrary decision the game makes.

[Peto]

2,D

[tater]

I think it's important to add that the ability for a single DC to kill a sub becomes a little more important when the escorts have realistic numbers of charges. If you only need to avoid 18 early war, instead of 80, they need to have a more realistic effect. Of course we then get into the problem of not being able to out dive the DCs, or the limited settings available for the DCs (30/60/90m).

So I would tend to err on slightly less lethal.

Watching a zillion DC attacks with external cam on, I was stunned at how many DCs it took to kill me where they were touching or even inside the sub. Any of the possibly fatal settings would mean at the very least pretty severe damage, which is also fine I guess.

tater