[REL] [WIP] IJN DC mod

tater · 10-11-07, 11:45 AM

DCs are giving me fits. That and the sub DM.

Something is very screwy. I tested looking for drops that resulted in near contact hits on a tambor, 1943. I lucked out, and managed a few tests with nearly identical hits. The hits were just abaft of the conning tower, a little above the deck gun in height. Well within 4m of the deck.

A stock DC (170 to 230 HP, 4.5m min, 40m max radius) nearly sank the boat. Loads of damage to systems, and a few "1" bulkhead damages.

I tested the mod I posted altered for the 162kg DC did 340 to 500 HP damage, with the radii set to 5.5m min, and 16 max. An almost identical hit did a bunch of damage, but not nearly as critical as the stock DC.

The radius is far more important than the HP value, I'm beginning to think the RFB/TM method of dropping the radius is making DCs far too weak. Note that I entirely agree with the goals of DC changes in both mods—a lot of DC attacks, but more survivable due to complex reasons in the game (when they do drop, they are depth accurate in aim, etc.). My goal is not uber DCs, but I think that DCs that are in contact, or nearly in contact should have a good chance to cripple the boat, while DCs farther out (past maybe 15m or so) should do nearly nothing at all other than shake the boat. The exact certain death radius, etc is a gameplay tweak, but I'd like it to be possible. Note that in testing sub DMs I put every single torpedo from a fleet boat into an S boat and never once got her to sink.

I'm going to test a stock DC with a small radius (~16) and a HUGE HP value, with a small range (like 900 min, 1000 max) and see what happens.

Actually, I think I need to test/tweak until a DC going off inside 6m sinks a sub, any sub, with 1 hit every time. I'd have the range of damage values vary by 1 HP. 999 to 1000, for example. That would be a boundry value, not what I'd use to play.

Then I can dial down the min damage to control the % of sure kills inside 6m. If 800 is massive damage inside 6m, and 1000 is a 100% kill, then an 800-1000 range might give desired results for a close drop. I could also make the min range considerably lower to create variablity/playability.

Then I can look at the radius and how it affects things. Right now as I see it sub damage is VERY sensitive to max radius, and pretty insensitive to DC damage max/min.

The issue with just upping the radius seems to be cumulative damage. With an ahistorically high radius (the stock 40m), there is the chance that many DCs too far away to do damage in RL might cripple the sub via a lot of small hp damage.

tater

tater · 10-11-07, 12:51 PM

Just tested a DC with 5.5m min radius, 16m max, minEF 950, maxEF 1000.

DC explodes just abaft of the port forward dive plane, almost in contact. Bulkhead 100% destroyed, DP transmission destroyed, no other damage.

The max radius is the critical value, a stock DC doing 170-230 damage would have don FAR more general damage.

I took a few more fairly close hits, one in about the same place, and when I went below 120 feet due to flooding, I crushed. The HP damage was obviously severe.

tater

tater · 10-11-07, 03:37 PM

Why do torpedoes have an AP value, but DCs don't?

A mark14 that uses the mag pistol shouldn't ever penetrate a hull before detonating.

tater

tater · 10-11-07, 04:06 PM

AP massively changes the way DCs behave!

I took a slightly more powerful DC (OK, damage of 390-400

). Min radius 6, max 16.

Gave it an AP of 25. A close hit (almost touching) was brutal. Not an instant sinking, but certainly RTB immediately assuming you survive at all type of damage. More distant hits seemingly did nothing, and middle distance hits gave the AA and deck gun damage so commonly seen in stock SH4 DC attacks from distance DCs.

I think some sort of AP value has a lot of promise. 25 might be too high, not sure yet. Next I will try a straight TM DC with a small AP added and see what happens.

Note that bombs have AP values, and the AP gets used even if the "hit" is a near miss. Torpedoes get AP, and mag pistols shouldn't impact at all.

In a thread a long time ago about trying to make AA dangerous to subs, ducimus said the stock DC damage was good because a direct hit should take out the sub. I agree, but in my testing, direct hits with DCs modified as per TM, a direct hit does no such thing. I think with an AP value added it just might...

tater

Wilcke · 10-11-07, 04:11 PM

your on to something....to bad I am still at work!

Wilcke

tater · 10-11-07, 04:29 PM

Now that I have some ideas as to where the ballpark values should be, I need to test rigorously.

Watch an attack, and screenshot the DC explosion in such a way that I can roughtly determine distance. After taking damage, save, then open with the damage analyzer and see what it looks like. Do the same for similar hits with various DC mods in place.

BTW, the hedgehog DCs have an AP value in stock

Canonicus · 10-11-07, 05:07 PM

tater..I'm simply loving the detailed insights into your way of thinking on this...

I want MORE!

BTW..this will be great when you get it worked out.

10-11-07, 04:06 PM	#4
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	AP massively changes the way DCs behave! I took a slightly more powerful DC (OK, damage of 390-400 ). Min radius 6, max 16. Gave it an AP of 25. A close hit (almost touching) was brutal. Not an instant sinking, but certainly RTB immediately assuming you survive at all type of damage. More distant hits seemingly did nothing, and middle distance hits gave the AA and deck gun damage so commonly seen in stock SH4 DC attacks from distance DCs. I think some sort of AP value has a lot of promise. 25 might be too high, not sure yet. Next I will try a straight TM DC with a small AP added and see what happens. Note that bombs have AP values, and the AP gets used even if the "hit" is a near miss. Torpedoes get AP, and mag pistols shouldn't impact at all. In a thread a long time ago about trying to make AA dangerous to subs, ducimus said the stock DC damage was good because a direct hit should take out the sub. I agree, but in my testing, direct hits with DCs modified as per TM, a direct hit does no such thing. I think with an AP value added it just might... tater Last edited by tater; 10-11-07 at 04:27 PM.

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10-11-07, 11:45 AM	#1
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	DCs are giving me fits. That and the sub DM. Something is very screwy. I tested looking for drops that resulted in near contact hits on a tambor, 1943. I lucked out, and managed a few tests with nearly identical hits. The hits were just abaft of the conning tower, a little above the deck gun in height. Well within 4m of the deck. A stock DC (170 to 230 HP, 4.5m min, 40m max radius) nearly sank the boat. Loads of damage to systems, and a few "1" bulkhead damages. I tested the mod I posted altered for the 162kg DC did 340 to 500 HP damage, with the radii set to 5.5m min, and 16 max. An almost identical hit did a bunch of damage, but not nearly as critical as the stock DC. The radius is far more important than the HP value, I'm beginning to think the RFB/TM method of dropping the radius is making DCs far too weak. Note that I entirely agree with the goals of DC changes in both mods—a lot of DC attacks, but more survivable due to complex reasons in the game (when they do drop, they are depth accurate in aim, etc.). My goal is not uber DCs, but I think that DCs that are in contact, or nearly in contact should have a good chance to cripple the boat, while DCs farther out (past maybe 15m or so) should do nearly nothing at all other than shake the boat. The exact certain death radius, etc is a gameplay tweak, but I'd like it to be possible. Note that in testing sub DMs I put every single torpedo from a fleet boat into an S boat and never once got her to sink. I'm going to test a stock DC with a small radius (~16) and a HUGE HP value, with a small range (like 900 min, 1000 max) and see what happens. Actually, I think I need to test/tweak until a DC going off inside 6m sinks a sub, any sub, with 1 hit every time. I'd have the range of damage values vary by 1 HP. 999 to 1000, for example. That would be a boundry value, not what I'd use to play. Then I can dial down the min damage to control the % of sure kills inside 6m. If 800 is massive damage inside 6m, and 1000 is a 100% kill, then an 800-1000 range might give desired results for a close drop. I could also make the min range considerably lower to create variablity/playability. Then I can look at the radius and how it affects things. Right now as I see it sub damage is VERY sensitive to max radius, and pretty insensitive to DC damage max/min. The issue with just upping the radius seems to be cumulative damage. With an ahistorically high radius (the stock 40m), there is the chance that many DCs too far away to do damage in RL might cripple the sub via a lot of small hp damage. tater

10-11-07, 12:51 PM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Just tested a DC with 5.5m min radius, 16m max, minEF 950, maxEF 1000. DC explodes just abaft of the port forward dive plane, almost in contact. Bulkhead 100% destroyed, DP transmission destroyed, no other damage. The max radius is the critical value, a stock DC doing 170-230 damage would have don FAR more general damage. I took a few more fairly close hits, one in about the same place, and when I went below 120 feet due to flooding, I crushed. The HP damage was obviously severe. tater

10-11-07, 03:37 PM	#3
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Why do torpedoes have an AP value, but DCs don't? A mark14 that uses the mag pistol shouldn't ever penetrate a hull before detonating. tater

10-11-07, 04:11 PM	#5
Wilcke The Old Man Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,441 Downloads: 234 Uploads: 0	your on to something....to bad I am still at work! Wilcke

10-11-07, 04:29 PM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Now that I have some ideas as to where the ballpark values should be, I need to test rigorously. Watch an attack, and screenshot the DC explosion in such a way that I can roughtly determine distance. After taking damage, save, then open with the damage analyzer and see what it looks like. Do the same for similar hits with various DC mods in place. BTW, the hedgehog DCs have an AP value in stock

10-11-07, 05:07 PM	#7
Canonicus XO Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: In your baffles... Posts: 434 Downloads: 624 Uploads: 7	tater..I'm simply loving the detailed insights into your way of thinking on this... I want MORE! BTW..this will be great when you get it worked out.