[TEC] Deck gun ROF

perisher · 05-03-07, 10:36 AM

I had a conversation today with a work colleague who served in British conventional subs in the '60s and '70s. His father served in subs in WWII.

I asked his opinion on the rate of fire that could be achieved with the deck gun. His answer was, "Surprisingly high." He said that his father claimed 10 to 12 rounds per minute on a 4 inch gun, but, (and this is a big but), only on those classes with a gun tower, such as the T, S and A boats. The technique was to approach the target, anything from a ship to a coastal railway, at periscope depth. The gun's crew all taking a good look at the target before getting into position under the gun tower hatch. Meanwhile ammunition was moved from the magazine to the wardroom, which was just below the gun tower. Compressed air was released into the boat to create a significant over pressure inside the hull. As the boat arrived at the firing point the captain would take a range and bearing to the target and order, "Surface". He would then give the gun layer the range and bearing and the order to commence firing. When the boat was still a few feet below the surface the first lieutenant would blow his whistle and the conning tower and gun tower hatches would be opened and the bridge and deck crews would climb out in the bubble of escaping air. The gun layer and sight-setter would train on the range and bearing given while the first round was being loaded and it would leave the gun before the deck was clear of the water. They could then fire as fast as the ammunition could be passed up the tower.

However, boats without gun towers, U, V and late model A boats, had to send up crew and ammunition via the conning tower. Manning the gun would take up to a minute and the rate of fire would be about 5 or less. He believed that a U Boat, due to its less elaborate ammunition supply system would be hard pushed to achieve 2 rounds per minute, with any kind of sea running.

As for US boats, he says it would be down to the ammunition supply again. Those boats that had chutes or tubes through the pressure hull for ammunition delivery could probably manage about 6 rounds per minute, while those whose ammunition had to come up the conning tower would be able to fire about 3 rounds per minute. The British boats were a little faster because the upper and lower conning tower hatches were in line with each other.

He added that rate of fire was only important when engaging a target when you needed to strike fast and be away before the enemy could react, as in destroying a bridge on a coastal railway. It is of little importance when using the gun in its traditional role of finishing off a target well out at sea, as no sub skipper in his right mind would use the gun for that unless he was sure his sub would be safe.

U-Bones · 05-03-07, 11:45 AM

Sounds pretty reasonable, especially the "as no sub skipper in his right mind would use the gun for that unless he was sure his sub would be safe."

'course there were probably quite a few that were not in their right mind. One in particular comes to mind.

Egan · 05-03-07, 01:34 PM

I'm actually not that surprised to hear such high ROF being quoted for Brit boats (well, maybe a bit surprised. 12 rounds seems very high,) - the deck guns on the Brit boats during the war seem to have got more use than those in other navies and some skippers seem to have been specialists in their use. I take it that figure is for optimum conditions, though?

perisher · 05-03-07, 03:17 PM

I too thought it a bit high but my friend says it was done. I would imagine it would have been done in calm conditions and in the Med, without the big ocean swells. The other advantage of the gun tower was it did give the gun's crew some protection from the environment. As you say, some boats were highly adept at using the gun and railways seem to have been the favourite target.

chopped50ford · 09-13-07, 10:57 PM

How do you change the ROF for the deck gun? Im loading 1 to 1.5 per min. I have the minitweaker.

panthercules · 09-14-07, 12:44 AM

LOL - I hope Beery doesn't notice that you've resurrected this old ROF thread

Anyway, it's easy to tweak the deck gun ROF to anything you want - just use minitweaker to change reload times in the relevant sub guns.sim files (Data\Library\USSubParts).

Also remember that having well rested, trained crewmen in the deck gun slots on your crew management screen wll speed up the reload time, to some degree at least (or, put another way, not having them in those slots will certainly slow down your reload times).

Good luck

chopped50ford · 09-14-07, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panthercules

LOL - I hope Beery doesn't notice that you've resurrected this old ROF thread

Anyway, it's easy to tweak the deck gun ROF to anything you want - just use minitweaker to change reload times in the relevant sub guns.sim files (Data\Library\USSubParts).

Also remember that having well rested, trained crewmen in the deck gun slots on your crew management screen wll speed up the reload time, to some degree at least (or, put another way, not having them in those slots will certainly slow down your reload times).

Good luck

The Minitweaker V1 does not open .SIM files. Do you have to convert them first?

tater · 09-14-07, 05:33 PM

S3D opens them fine. TM has the reload time set tot he stock 5 seconds. You have some other issue.

Sailor Steve · 09-14-07, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egan

(well, maybe a bit surprised. 12 rounds seems very high,)

That actually sounds about right for most 4-5" guns. The official rate of fire for the 12pdr (3") from the 1890s was 20 rounds per minute.

On the other hand, we've had several years of discussions now concerning rates of fire in actual combat, and the average as observed over many actions at sea - for submarines of course - seems to be about 3 rounds per minute. High calm-water rates are offset by the fact that submarines have a very low freeboard, very high moment rates and can become quite wet in even a minor sea.

chopped50ford · 09-15-07, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

S3D opens them fine. TM has the reload time set tot he stock 5 seconds. You have some other issue.

I also have the new NSM 3.3 and it does have an increase of time to "real" reload times for the deck gun. That is where the issue lies.

I tried again to open the file, but the minitweaker wont see it, only .txt files.

LukeFF · 09-15-07, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chopped50ford

How do you change the ROF for the deck gun? Im loading 1 to 1.5 per min. I have the minitweaker.

Make sure you have crewmen in your deck gun slots, or otherwise the ROF will be slow. The game recognizes you as one crewman operating the weapon, so your reload rate will be naturally slow if you're the only one manning it! With 2 other crewmen the gun operates as it would in reality - that is, with a gunner, spotter and loader.

chopped50ford · 09-16-07, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Quote:

Originally Posted by chopped50ford

How do you change the ROF for the deck gun? Im loading 1 to 1.5 per min. I have the minitweaker.

Make sure you have crewmen in your deck gun slots, or otherwise the ROF will be slow. The game recognizes you as one crewman operating the weapon, so your reload rate will be naturally slow if you're the only one manning it! With 2 other crewmen the gun operates as it would in reality - that is, with a gunner, spotter and loader.

I have 2 men manning the gun, but they are fresh sailors. I need to get thier experience up.

05-03-07, 10:36 AM	#1
perisher Frogman Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 300 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	[TEC] Deck gun ROF I had a conversation today with a work colleague who served in British conventional subs in the '60s and '70s. His father served in subs in WWII. I asked his opinion on the rate of fire that could be achieved with the deck gun. His answer was, "Surprisingly high." He said that his father claimed 10 to 12 rounds per minute on a 4 inch gun, but, (and this is a big but), only on those classes with a gun tower, such as the T, S and A boats. The technique was to approach the target, anything from a ship to a coastal railway, at periscope depth. The gun's crew all taking a good look at the target before getting into position under the gun tower hatch. Meanwhile ammunition was moved from the magazine to the wardroom, which was just below the gun tower. Compressed air was released into the boat to create a significant over pressure inside the hull. As the boat arrived at the firing point the captain would take a range and bearing to the target and order, "Surface". He would then give the gun layer the range and bearing and the order to commence firing. When the boat was still a few feet below the surface the first lieutenant would blow his whistle and the conning tower and gun tower hatches would be opened and the bridge and deck crews would climb out in the bubble of escaping air. The gun layer and sight-setter would train on the range and bearing given while the first round was being loaded and it would leave the gun before the deck was clear of the water. They could then fire as fast as the ammunition could be passed up the tower. However, boats without gun towers, U, V and late model A boats, had to send up crew and ammunition via the conning tower. Manning the gun would take up to a minute and the rate of fire would be about 5 or less. He believed that a U Boat, due to its less elaborate ammunition supply system would be hard pushed to achieve 2 rounds per minute, with any kind of sea running. As for US boats, he says it would be down to the ammunition supply again. Those boats that had chutes or tubes through the pressure hull for ammunition delivery could probably manage about 6 rounds per minute, while those whose ammunition had to come up the conning tower would be able to fire about 3 rounds per minute. The British boats were a little faster because the upper and lower conning tower hatches were in line with each other. He added that rate of fire was only important when engaging a target when you needed to strike fast and be away before the enemy could react, as in destroying a bridge on a coastal railway. It is of little importance when using the gun in its traditional role of finishing off a target well out at sea, as no sub skipper in his right mind would use the gun for that unless he was sure his sub would be safe. __________________ "Pitt was the greatest fool who ever lived to encourage a mode of war which they who commanded the seas did not want, and which, if successful, would deprive them of it." Earl St.Vincent (allegedly)

05-03-07, 03:17 PM	#4
perisher Frogman Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 300 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	I too thought it a bit high but my friend says it was done. I would imagine it would have been done in calm conditions and in the Med, without the big ocean swells. The other advantage of the gun tower was it did give the gun's crew some protection from the environment. As you say, some boats were highly adept at using the gun and railways seem to have been the favourite target. __________________ "Pitt was the greatest fool who ever lived to encourage a mode of war which they who commanded the seas did not want, and which, if successful, would deprive them of it." Earl St.Vincent (allegedly)

09-13-07, 10:57 PM	#5
chopped50ford Weps Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bentonville, AR Posts: 367 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	How do you change the ROF for the deck gun? Im loading 1 to 1.5 per min. I have the minitweaker. __________________ TM2(SS) USS Asheville - Plankowner, Shellback, "Order of the Ditch" http://ths-i.com/

09-14-07, 12:44 AM	#6
panthercules The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,336 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	LOL - I hope Beery doesn't notice that you've resurrected this old ROF thread Anyway, it's easy to tweak the deck gun ROF to anything you want - just use minitweaker to change reload times in the relevant sub guns.sim files (Data\Library\USSubParts). Also remember that having well rested, trained crewmen in the deck gun slots on your crew management screen wll speed up the reload time, to some degree at least (or, put another way, not having them in those slots will certainly slow down your reload times). Good luck __________________

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05-03-07, 11:45 AM	#2
U-Bones Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Treading Water Posts: 847 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	Sounds pretty reasonable, especially the "as no sub skipper in his right mind would use the gun for that unless he was sure his sub would be safe." 'course there were probably quite a few that were not in their right mind. One in particular comes to mind.

05-03-07, 01:34 PM	#3
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	I'm actually not that surprised to hear such high ROF being quoted for Brit boats (well, maybe a bit surprised. 12 rounds seems very high,) - the deck guns on the Brit boats during the war seem to have got more use than those in other navies and some skippers seem to have been specialists in their use. I take it that figure is for optimum conditions, though?

09-14-07, 05:33 PM	#8
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	S3D opens them fine. TM has the reload time set tot he stock 5 seconds. You have some other issue.