Who was the more evil power in WWII ?

[namika]

Hmm, really good points from everyone.
This topic is the one which really shows that the posters are mature and serious people when coming to this discussion and not letting themselves rant about the evil xx country.
If all people thought this way I highly doubt there would be any conflicts regarding WW2 in these days. But that's of course only an utopistic dream until people get to know all the sides, their combatants' feelings in WW2 and try to understand that they were human aswell. After that they wouldn't fear them as an "unknown evil".
Old harms are not forgotten. That's natural, becouse people can never really forget such horrific things that have happened. But it is a problem when there are some territorries where the people or some groups of individuals can't set a line between past and present and they still try to make conflicts based ONLY the harms another nation inflicted to them in the past.
Why should a youngster be hated only becouse his/her grandfathers fought on the other side in the war?

[Frederf]

A fun point I like to make at parties (and why nobody invites me anymore) is there's nothing inherently evil about Germans circa 1940. Take pretty much take any Tom Dick and Francis and put them in the same position and the same thing would happen. It's utterly inconceivable that other people put under the exact same conditions wouldn't have nearly identical results.

The argument comically ends up with a complete rejection of the idea of an American, Austrailian or British person being able to be a cog in the holocaust machine despite the obvious conclusion that psychology is immune to nationality.

I have tremendous sympathy for German soldiers pitched in a losing battle. It always confuses me when others don't share that view.

[tater]

If you want to compare deaths due to allied bombings, only count the deaths inflicted after the axis surrendered. THAT is the difference. The axis powers slaughtered people who were already under their total control, the allies bombed people who were actively fighting them before the bomb run, during it, and RTB.

Evil on such a broad scale requires many hundreds of thousands of willing actors at the bare minimum (and millions of passive participants). Giving everyone but a tiny handful at the top a pass means you miss an important lesson in what not to do (or allow) in the future. That's a mistake people make at their own peril, IMO.

tater

Originally Posted by tater

If you want to compare deaths due to allied bombings, only count the deaths inflicted after the axis surrendered. THAT is the difference. The axis powers slaughtered people who were already under their total control, the allies bombed people who were actively fighting them before the bomb run, during it, and RTB.

Evil on such a broad scale requires many hundreds of thousands of willing actors at the bare minimum (and millions of passive participants). Giving everyone but a tiny handful at the top a pass means you miss an important lesson in what not to do (or allow) in the future. That's a mistake people make at their own peril, IMO.

tater

Ever heard of Dresden, Hamburg or Berlin?

The americans bombed those cities into rubble, historical beautiful cities with hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Or what about the Millions of rapes by the russian hordes?

You should realize that its the victor that writes the history books. The Germans are only the bad guys of the world because they lost, if germany had won im sure we would all know about the american concentration camps for italians, germans and japs.

[Ducimus]

I predict this thread now takes a spiralling tumble downwards. Participating in Threads like this are kind of like an car accident on the side of the freeway. You know you shouldn't rubberneck (cause you'll slow down and add to the traffic congestion), but you do it anyway.

[tater]

Dresden is grossly overstated. 35k. Maybe. The large numbers came about from Nazi propaganda during the war, then Soviet propaganda during the cold war. Real Germans records support the lower numbers, Goebels literally added a zero to the real figure civil defense gave him and published it as an allied attrocity. I'll give you the Soviet rapes, etc. They had no problem murdering their own in countless tens of millions, a few hundreds of thousands or even millions of Germans would be small change to the CCCP killing machine.

Regardless, there is a huge difference between bombing--even area bombing--a city that is actively involved in war, and rounding up people who have already capitulated and (take your pick of industrial murder techniques and place here) them.

How many cities did we burn to the ground AFTER they had surrendered? None. How many people who surrendered themselves to German "relocation" were relocated to a trench covered with lime, or smoke in the air? A lot more than "none." A lot more than all the allied bombing deaths (legitimate or not) combined.

We'd know about American Concentration Camps? Where? The best you'll get are the Japanese Americans rounded up wrongly. They lost time, and property, they weren't murdered. None of them.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
(US in ww2 is in there, BTW, he credits us with ~700k democides from bombing (mostly Japan---which might be in error since technically most japanese were combatants by Imperial Edict (all men 15-65, all women 17-47)).

tater

[-Pv-]

Decay...

There were many thoughtful and articulate posts near the beginning. Now it degrades into who killed the most and who is more evil.

More attuned to the intent of the thread at the beginning, I have played all the computer sub simulations since the mid 80s. I have played both sides. Being a US dude, I didn't have the emersion I suspect many in Europe get from playing the German boats.

Sonalysts games let you play US and Russian. SH lets us play either side so you can choose. I've noticed there is a similar dynamic in the Flight Simulator world where most people fly within a few hundred miles of their home even though they have the whole planet to explore. We are more likely to enjoy a familiar culture. Pacific Storm lets the player choose Japanese or US with equal chance of winning.

When I play sub sims, I don't even think of war though I know it's a concept deaply ingrained in the game. Having grown up on the mystique of sub stories since a child, gaming lets me participate in that mystique. I was 8 years old when I got to tour a nuclear sub. More, I'm thinking about the game logic as I've come to know it (the rules so to speak) and how to "beat" the game. I'm also thinking of how brave my parent's generation was to be wiling to flight in the many dangerous machines being developed and how difficult. Teamwork, logistics, strategy, environment, daring, luck. I'm also admiring the technology. Both that which is being simulated, and the computer techology that brings it so movie-like to my home desk. Being a technical kind of guy, I like simulations which encourage me to learn about the real world. Practical physics and mechanics. Different ways of solving complex problems.

So, I'm entertained on many levels but the level at which I'm NOT entertained is that of most 1st person shooters with gore splashing all over my screen. In that way, most sub sims are anesthetic enough I'm not re-living war which is why you're unlikely to find people participating in this forum going out and commiting mass murder. I'm not out for blood as much as I'm out for a score.
I'm not amblivalent to the theme of the game, nor am I so sensitive I cannot enjoy it at some level, but I HAVE drawn a line and I will NOT cross it. Ever.

Have I rescued the thread? I doubt it. Flame wars are perpetuated by those who will never give up a contentious opinion even after repeating it hundreds of times. Isn't this what war is really about? Fight to the death for an idea, then fight to the death because the other guy's idea killed your family and friends?
-Pv-