SH3 realism nazis - got to love them

it would come out with SH3-Ultimate. It would redo and fix many of the weak spots and make the game easier to mod. I'd pay 3 times the asking price for SH4 for an SH3 like that. Or Ubi could just sell a standard version with supported tools for modders to really fix it up - and I'd pay 4 times the price for even that.

As for this other U-boat game - it is looking better - now like SH2 with real water - and I see some hope there.

[Hitman]

I even plan to play the WWI sub game in August - though for the life of me I can't imagine how the war could be interesting until the allies get real depth charges. I think the real danger for a WWI U-boat should be their difficulty in control of dives - as many were lost that way. Donitz nearly stood his U-boat on its nose while making a sudden dive

WWI was truly fascinating, and full manual targeting (No TDC, which meant 99% of the torpedo shots were done from 90º of the target) and tactics make it very fun to play in that era. If you can understand german I recommend you a book (9€) currently easily available with a first person account of one of the top WWI aces, Max Valentiner ("Todesgefahr über uns: U38 im Einsatz" - Ullstein Verlag). Shows pretty well how WW1 was also dangerous and challenging

As for the realism, I said it many times and I must repeat it: The constraints of a computer simulation can only ensure you will get realistic outputs from realistic inputs. I hate to say this, but I'm pissed off when I see someone f.e. yelling that he outgunned a destroyer in a surface duel and claiming for the lack of realism in SH3. OK, the game engine might have allowed that irrealistic outcome, but it is the player who decided to stay out of the historic realism and engage the destroyer. Anything else from that point onwards is simply irrealistic and can't be blamed on the game. After all, it is just that, a game. Only realistic inputs shall guarantee realistic outputs, that's my POW

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hitman, I will take your statement one step further as well.

Inputing "real-life" data NEVER guarantees that "realistic" results are achieved in our preferred sim.

Hours and hours of problem element isolation and small incremental changes/tweaks must be made to reach a desired effect.

Often hours, days, or even weeks of work must be SCRAPPED and thrown away due to more favorable work-arounds or even total failure.

Furthermore, concerning whining critics. I think that individuals who sit back and wait for mods to be released... only to whine that "this" or "that" is SOooo wrong...

... may have been away from stock SH3 for so long that they've forgotten how far things have come. Modders have spoiled them.

To this kind of critic we say "GO JUMP IN THE LAKE! Mod it yourself. There is nothing magic about modding SH3. If it was easy, everyone would do it. What have you done to fix the problem?"

Let me also say, that constructive criticism is an entirely different animal that allows for conference and either ends in solution or at the very least, understanding why things are the way they are. I think also, that the constructive critic may also realize that if his point is proven... it may also mean that the modder(s) either drop or reconstruct matters that require a great deal of work and time. Constructive critics have caused the GWX dev team to conquer great obstacles.

VonHelsching is a great example of a constructive critic. VonHelsching joined the GWX Dev team and spent six months reconstructing ship damage models and faced HOURS of boredom observing... and correcting. (Not to mention late war player sensor options, battery life fixes, the Averof... and many other things.)

The difference between the two types of critic though, I think may be as simple as attitude. One simply to bitches loudly until "his issue" is fixed... and the other looks for a way to understand or fix things.

[Hitman]

Very well said

Inputing "real-life" data NEVER guarantees that "realistic" results are achieved in our preferred sim.

Actually I just wanted to highlight that realistic outputs are programmed expecting realistic inputs - and of course even so sims do not always in any case give you those realistic outputs from realistic inputs- and that what the game sure does not expect and is not made for, is unrealistic inputs For those, no one should ever expect good results except by pure luck

[ichso]

From that point of view no simulation ever got any realistic inputs as those would have contained the exact behaviour of water for example.
Everything that can be (economicly) programmed for such simulations are certain rules how an object should behave under certain (ingame-) conditions and even those are very limited.
If we would have an exact physical simulation at the basis everything a developer would need to do would throw a submarine into it and every propellor pulse it would do would have an impact on it's surroundings and itself. THIS would be realistic but that wouldn't produce any playable framerate .

So everything that gets simulated is just some abstraction from the reality and therefore even most simulation input lacks heavily in detail and the outcome of a simulation are just some rules for everything in it to behave some certain ways. And this is where all the tweeking starts to get it as close to real life behaviour as possible.

[bigboywooly]

Remember that this " game " or " sim " however you want to term it is played on a PC not in real life
As such limitations are placed due to the handling of things by the computer and the game engine

FI
Ideally if you damage a ship so it has stopped and you mark it on the map then go chasing the convoy its reasonable to expect the ship to be there when you go back
Well if you sail 35 to 50 KM away the ship will disappear from the players rendered units area
Entering the rendering distance of the damaged unit again will see the ship is as good as new
If the distance that ships were rendered to the player was increased to 100 or 150km the effect on the computer would drag it to a stop

Limitations

Similary with AI watch crews
No account is taken in for tiredness or lack of crew on a ship
The game goes by its programmed rules
Treating all instances the same

Meh
Not perfect but still hugely playable
And a tad addictive