[REL] Die Slowly Stage 14 ...

[Redwine]

Last Version : Die Slowly Stage 16 Here :

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...583#post586583



Die Slowly Stage 14 :
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For those who dont know the mod, it was created as an attempt to fix the "unsinkable" merchants and the "uncontrolable sink" on subs with the consecuent "Domino" effect.

Any of both effect can be totally fixed yet, but them was reduced to not happens too often, and when they happens, they are more controlable and aceptable.


General Short Overview :
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The "unsinkable" ships are something strange, initially i was thinking they was empty ships, but not.

Empty ships are easy to recognize because they have the waterline very up the sea surface and they have a continuous balance from port to straboard like as a pendulum.

Settings works fine with all ships loadup options into mission editor, but there are some ships into the campaign wich seems to be too hard to sink.

If we make them "normal" to sink, then, the ships filled with ammo, fuel, cargo become too easy to sink.

I attempt to found a good balance between them.

Now the "unsinkable" ships still being more hard than "normal ships, but do not take too much torps, and many "normal" ships can be killed with a single torp, many takes 2 or even 3.


The "uncontrolable sink" and the following "Domino" effect can be terminated, but then, the sub become so strong, and game loss interest.

I attempt to found a good balance where those effects still present but are not too pronunciated so you can manage them with your Damage Control Team.


Balance was stablished for Salmon, tambor and similar subs, if you play Gato and Balao, you will found your life a little bit easy, and if you play a S Class, your life will be more hard.


Warships was reworked, all battleshisp, light and heavy crusers, carriers are now more hard to sink.


Destroyers was made more weak, somo of them was having more hitpoints as some battleships.


Many other things related to survival probability was reworked, like as depth charges, bolds/decoys, radar, air strikes, planes.


Download the Mod from Here :

Last Version Die Slowly Stage 16 :

http://hosted.filefront.com/Redwine

The file contains two versions, one... ready to use with default settings, the other... a step by step to personalize your preferences at your choice.

More details here from the Readme :

Die Slowly Mod Stage 14 :
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Why this name ?

Asked by many guys, this mod produce many diferent ways to sink, but in many cases, it is a slow way to sink,
in ships and in your sub.

Traslate it as "Sinks Slowly" or "Slow Sink" in your mind if you preffer.



News from Stage 13 to Stage 14 :
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Zones settings reworked, be ware to stay so near of an exploding ammo filled ship!

Submarine settings reworked, crash speed was increased, so the amounth of dame the sub takes under the 
crush depth is taked more quickly now. Sub is little weak now, more interesting.

DDs/DEs settings reworked, they are a little bit more strong now, some times they can not be terminated with 
a single torp.

MK-27 "Cutty" was reworked due how DDs are more strong now, they becomed so weak to kill a DD.
Now MK-27 are very more unpredictable, some times they do nothing, some times they produce a reduced damage
and DDs mantain their dangerous capabilities, some times they produce a slow flooding and DDs sinks
after few minutes, some times produce severe damage like lose of a proppeller or loss of DDs sensors, 
DDs dont sinks but losse their hunting capabilities,and some times if they hits a critical zone,
the DD can be terminated by a single hit.

Japanese Battleships settings reworked. Kongo BB major rework. 

Japanese Carriers settings reworked.

Japanese Light Cruisers settings reworked. Heavy Cruisers was reworked on previous versions, but
Light Cruisers needs a rework too.

Air Strike probability increased in comparision with Stage 13, but reduced in comparision with stock value.

Some new impresive sounds.

Some new reworked textures related to torpedo splashes and more.

Some textures related to fires, flashes, halos, explosions and exlosions clouds was reworked.


General Quick Overview :
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For those who dont know the mod, it was created as an attempt to fix the "unsinkable" merchnts and the 
"uncontrolable sink" on subs with the consecuent "Domino" effect.

Any of both effect can be fixed yet, but them was reduced to not happens often, and when happens they are 
more controlable and aceptable.



About the name :
))))))))))))))))

Called like this due to it produce in many situations a slow way to sink, for ships and for your sub, 
traslate it as "Sinks Slowly" or "Slow Sink" if you want.



About the "unsinkable" ships :
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The "unsinkable" ships are something strange, initially i was thinking they was empty ships, but not.
Empty ships are easy to recognize becuase they have the waterline very up the sea surface and they have 
a continuous balance from port to straboard.

Settings works fine with all ships loadup options into mission editor, but there are some ships into the 
campaign wich seems to be too hard to sink.

If we make them "normal" to sink, then, the ships filled with ammo, fuel, cargo become too easy to sink.

I attempt to found a good balance between them.
Now the "unsinkable" ships still being more hard, but do not take too much torps, and many "normal" ships 
can be killed with a single torp, many takes 2 or even 3.



About the sub's "uncontrolable sink" and "Domino effect" :
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Those effects can be terminated, but then, the sub become so strong, and game loss interest.
I attempt to found a good balance where those effects still present but are not too pronunciated so you can manage them with your Damage Control Team.
Balance was stablished for Salmon, tambor and similar subs, if you play Gato and Balao, you will found your life a little bit easy, and if you play a S Class, your life will be more hard.




Considerations :
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This pack of tweaked files is a team job by Pcelt and Redwine
This mod was not posible without the full help of Pcelt.


Work is in Progress ...

Made for SH IV  V1.2

Tested on v1.2, with realistic repair times, (a little bit easy if realistic repair times box not checked), 
and with all files present here, not sure about the bahaviour if you dont install all files of the mod.

Particles setting to full reccomended.

Mod was adjusted to works fine on Salmon, Tambor and those kind of subs, you can spect your life will be
a little bit hard into an S Class, and a little bit easy into a Gato or Balao Class.

Mod Was adjusted to use MK-14 and 23 topedoes, you can spect your life will be a little bit hard when using
MK-10 and 18, and a little bit easy when use MK-16.

MK-27 "Cutty" was adjusted to damage a DDs, may be able to stop their attack, but not adjusted to Kill the DD.
Any way some times a DD can be killed by it.

Mod was adjusted to works better on merchants filled with cargo, ammo, and fuel, you must to spect 
your life will be hard on "unsinkable" merchants. Any way those merchants do not take too much torps now
as before.

Initially i was thinking, the "unsinkable" merchants was "e,pty"erchants, but not, the empty merchants
was easy to recognize due their waterline is so up out of the sea surface, and their gravity center is so high 
and then they are continuouslly balancing port to straboard as a pendulum.
The mod works fine with the filled options of the mission editor, but in campaign, it seems to be another
fill option wich cause the "unsinkable" merchants.

Many times the ships can be terminated by flooding without expend more torps, you decide if you can wait
for them to flood or expend more torps to terminate them inmediatelly.

It is just an attempt to make the game more playable and funny, not a great mod, not itended to be a competence 
with any of the excellent magamods. 

Not just a mod, just a small collection of tweaks and personalizations that make a small diference






Why these tweaks ?
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The stock game has some anoying things, some merchants are to hard to sink, needs up to 10 torps according 
people reports, when battleships, even the Yamato, are too easy to destroy, some small battleships sinks
with 2 or even a single torp, and the Yamato with only 3 torps.

Some battlesips has only 300 HP ! (Ise and Ise2) and Yamato 800, some heavy cruisers has 300 hitpoints, 
when some medium merchants has 300 and even 400 hitpoints, and some large merchants has 400 hitpoints.
 
And all destroyers has 400 HP... more than the Ise and Ise 2, and half of Yamato.

So, some times was so hard to sink a medium merchant than a heavy cruiser or even a small battleship as Maya.

Kongo Class has a very low armor, it was increwased too.

Cruisers, light and heavy cruiser was too weak too.

Plus, some large and medium merchants has a behaviour into a builded test mission, but into the campaign,
they seems to have not the same behaviour.

Those filled with fuel or ammo as load up, seems to have the same behaviour.

But there are some others, wich do not explodes, wich are so hard to sink, demanding up to 10 toprs.

Initially we think they are thos efiled with freight, but into a test mission those filled with freight
have not any problem, the remaining option is they may be empty ships.

You can roll back the weaked ships, but you must to take in account, with the reduced hitpoints, in example
a conflictive Nippon Oiler, large modern tanker, filled with ammo or fule will take most of the times
a single torp, ocasionally 2.

Filled with freight into a test mission, it takes most times 2 torps, and ocasionally 3.
Empty in campaign, it may need between 3 and 5.

But if you roll bak the files to stock hitpoints for all cargo ships, in example this ship, empty in campaign,
can take up to 8 or even 10 torps.

Use of new .zon files with smaller hitpoint on merchants is reccomended.

The files .zon for Battleships and Heavy Cruisers has increased hitpoints.

The sub has some strange things as in example the knowed "Domino effect", wich can not be called a bug 
by sure, but if it is a "feature", it is very anoying.

When your sub take damage, wich happens too easy, after repairs, you have the mesage string mesage 
"Hull is repaired...sir!" and the voice mesage "Hull is intact...sir!".

It is very anoying because it a lie. Your hull is stressed and can have lot of damage.

With your hull stressed, your crush depth is not any more your "build" crush depth.

It is reduced dramatically. Some times you crush even if attempt to dive to periscope depth.

After lot of watch the files, can not found which trigger or controls this reduction in the crush depth.

The only way to live together with this feature, is to make the sub more strong and give you more chances
to be able to dive, after take damage, almost at periscope depth, and if posible up to crash dive depth, 
to be able to scape from planes and DDs in the remaining time of the mission to be able to back home.

This set of tweaked files not solve it, the "Domino effect" is still present, but it is not too
pronunciated as before.

Most of the times, you will be able to hide your sub from enemies at periscope depth safelly, and most
of the times you will be able to dive to crash depth, with no problems.

Often you will be able to reach even the thermal layer, but under 50m it is an unkow territory.
Under 50m you are not sure if you can be crushed suddently.

Of course 50m is not an exact value, it is uncertain, may happen at 45m or at 70m.






What Changes :
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Battleships, Heavy and Light Cruiser was made more strong to sink.

Some merchant ships, Specially those conflictive ships, was made more weak.

Torpedoes was powered-up.

All flooding times for all ships was increased,  now they sinks more slowly, you can wait for them to sink,
or use more torps to terminate them quickly.

Planes was made more weak, AAA is good, but planes seems to be non destructible items.

Sub was made more strong. Sub flooding times are larger.

Depth charges lethal radius was reduced, stock values are unrealistically exagerated, the lethal radius
was reduced, but be ware, any way new values are bigger than in real life.
Any way, new values are a random value between 1.5 and 3 times the real life values, it is to not make the game so easy.

Many new FX effect added, not sure if all them works, but ingame tests are so spectacular.

Some aditional tweaks at user decision was added, they are important too, to survival probability.

[Redwine]

Some Screen Shots...

The changes made, generates some stange ways to sink... and some more frecuent FX effects.
You can see this kind of ship's damage often....










Here you can see a DD wich is severe damaged, but not destroyed, it is "alive" yet, but with zero speed, semisubmerged, but it dont sinks, stay floating for ever.

[Redwine]

[Redwine]

[ReallyDedPoet]

Thanks Redwine, nice screens as well.

RDP

[tater]

I'll have to try this!

Does weakening the DDs make them even more vulnerable to deck gun fire? How about collision damage?

If some were set to be as had to take out as BBs, I've never seen on, perhaps it's that the BBs are rediculously easy to sink? Maybe all the DDs need to be as hard as stock BBs, and all the BBs need to become vastly harder to sink...

I'm intrigued by this mod, and I'll continue to try it out, but overall it seems like things are too easy to sink with it (merchants). Last time I did a patrol with it, every single merchant I hit split in half with a large chunk just gone from the underside instead of a torpedo hit hole. In RL, the majority of ships sank due to loss of stability, not loss of bouyancy. Meaning they took on a list, they either went down with the deck awash on one side, or capsized. The bouyancy/stability finding was the result of the allies looking at what sunk their ships in the Atlantic, and they had a large sample size of data, sadly.

As it is, my sub seems like a cartoon in terms of how much damage I can take. the only time I get sunk is usually a bad DC attack---stock DCs. If the DCs were reduced to their historically low charge weight, and if they were somehow never detonated below 100-150ft early in the war, I'd not get so critically damaged by them.

Have you messed at all with the DC settings to control submarine "domino effect?"

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by tater

As it is, my sub seems like a cartoon in terms of how much damage I can take. the only time I get sunk is usually a bad DC attack

I have had pretty good luck so far with this one. I have been sunk more than a few times, but in my latest patrol I have taken quite a beating but have managed to survive thus far. Actually one of my better patrols

RDP

[tater]

I think I recall someone saying that the SH4 DCs for the IJN are the same as US DCs. IJN DCs had 220lb charges vs 600 for the USN Mk7, and 300 for the USN Mk6.

I think the Mk7 was a roll-off, and the smaller ones were used both roll off and launched.

So if the IJN DCs are 50% stronger than a US type, that would explain a lot. If SH3 (I presume they were copied over) did Mk7s, then the IJN DC is 2.7X more powerful than it should be. I notice the air dropped DC is 450kg. That's gotta have a 600lb burst charge.

In general I'd liek to see the IJN attack far more with DCs, but have them not do much damage unless a direct hit.

BTW, I know you fixed the DCs to a point, but as you said, it's still too strong. Seems that fixing the AI sensors to get the escorts to attack, then dropping the lethal radius/charge further might be an interesting path.

tater

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by tater

I'll have to try this!

Does weakening the DDs make them even more vulnerable to deck gun fire? How about collision damage?

Hi Tater !

The mod is not oriented to adjust a deckgun duel against a DD, that was real only in WW1, but not later.

About the collision damage, it was my intention to research about it in this version, if you read the redme file, DDs become strongest from Stage 13 to Stage 14.

But sadly i was not able to fix the collision damage without to make the DDs so strong.

Originally Posted by tater

If some were set to be as had to take out as BBs, I've never seen on, perhaps it's that the BBs are rediculously easy to sink? Maybe all the DDs need to be as hard as stock BBs, and all the BBs need to become vastly harder to sink...

Sorry my bad english, i cant understand well this...
With the stock settings all battleships was too weak, some of them has very low armor, and some of them has lower hitpoints than merchants and DDs wich i think is not correct.

Originally Posted by tater

I'm intrigued by this mod, and I'll continue to try it out, but overall it seems like things are too easy to sink with it (merchants).

If you read the readme, you wiull found the answer, if you adjust well the 'normal" merchants, then... the "unsinkable" merchants become much more strong than a battleship.
When i made the "unsinkable" merchants more "normal" (4 or 5 torps to sink), then the "normal" merchants become more weak.
Any way, the amount of torps to sink a "normal" merchant is too variable.

If you do not hit a critical zone, or a cargo with ammo or fuel, then thay can tale up to 3 torps, wich sounds good to me.

If you hits a critical xone, or a cargo compartement filled with ammo or fuel, a single hit will be enought.

Any way... if you read the readme files, you will found, into the sea folder there are many diferent choices, you can make the merchants ships more strong or more weak at your pleasure changing prebuilded files.

Originally Posted by tater

Last time I did a patrol with it, every single merchant I hit split in half with a large chunk just gone from the underside instead of a torpedo hit hole.

You was lucky, it happens, but not always, some times, every merchant you hit needs more than one torps.

I think so it is related to the campaign layer, the zone where you patrol, and the kind of load into those ships.

Originally Posted by tater

In RL, the majority of ships sank due to loss of stability, not loss of bouyancy.

Stability, position of gravity center, floatation force, was not tweaked by this mod.

Any way, few ships sinks by loss of stability, Battleships in example, and other warships, they become with the keel up...

Originally Posted by tater

Meaning they took on a list, they either went down with the deck awash on one side, or capsized. The bouyancy/stability finding was the result of the allies looking at what sunk their ships in the Atlantic, and they had a large sample size of data, sadly.

If you use or test the mod more extensive, you will found many ships lossing stability, any way, it was not tweaking by me, it was from stock.

Not all ships sinks with the deck awash, many sinks scored at side, or even with the keel up, many with the bow or stern up.

I think so, after test too many, there are a big quantity of diferent ways to sink using this mod.

Originally Posted by tater

As it is, my sub seems like a cartoon in terms of how much damage I can take.

The other option is to have the "domino effect"... and this mod was started with the intention to fix it... any way in this version the sub was made more weak.

Originally Posted by tater

...the only time I get sunk is usually a bad DC attack---stock DCs.

About that, i look not to set historical values, like in SH2, and SH3, i attempt to test many times and found a survival probability near to the historical one, disregarding if settings are historical or not.

To have historical settings, and a unreal survival probability is useless in my opinion.

In example, depth charge lethal radius was reduced, but they still having about the triple of the real life values ... or more.

The way i follow, is, if you do not make any stupid thing, you must to be safe, a sub at silent running was only detected by pasive hydrophones at 50 meters, i readed that at an historical navy web document some time.

Any way, we have a problem here... i do not touch it almost yet...

DDs are so stupid...

But it is no matter of this mod.

So i change the way... in my test about the sub damage, i use the open provocation against the DDs, y was killed about 30 % of the times.

It is double of the real life deadly percent.

DDs are too stupid, that makes the game a little bit easy... but that was not the objective of this mod, almost yet, may be the next step...

Originally Posted by tater

If the DCs were reduced to their historically low charge weight, and if they were somehow never detonated below 100-150ft early in the war, I'd not get so critically damaged by them.

Not tweaked by this mod, thing are like as stock... i thnik so if we limited the depth charge depth to historical values, the game can become too easy, and losse interest...

Discused at SH 3 forum many time ago, the allied depth charges explodes so over the head of the german subs and them stay safe under them .... during years...

That was historical, but gives you a long "happy times", and may be plays against game interesting...

Originally Posted by tater

Have you messed at all with the DC settings to control submarine "domino effect?"

I cant understand well, but tweaking depth charge the hitting probability was reduced, the power of the depth charge is as stock...

Only their masive radius of influence was tweaked.

The damage caused by the depth charge was not changed, but as they have now a reduced radius, the probability to be hited was reduced, and when you are hited, pnly a well aimed depth charge will cause strong damage.

The domino effect was "atenuated" (not fixed) decreasing the crash speed.

This, plus the increased flooding times, and the increasied hitpoints.... gives you a long way to be killed.

The bad of this point is you can dic=ve under the crush depth, with no instant crush... your hull take "hidden" damage every second, but a low speed.

The result is.... you have not one uncontrolable sink, you have many of them, the sub sinks uncontrolable, and you can recover it.... it will sinks uncontrolable a new time, and you will be able to recover it... like this, many times, may be 6 or 7 times, but each time... your hull is taking "hiden" damage (donino effect) , and finally, if you not manage welll your crew and reapir team, the domino effect will surprise you ....

How to be more clear in my bad english...

Before : One uncontrolablke sink, one killing domino effect.

Now : many uncontrolable sinks, many small and low speed domino effects.

Result : In my opinion, an inmersive fight against the damage, you must to manage your crew some times during hour to save the sub from the final accumulative hull damage and domino effect.


I undestand, you dont like the mod, any way i aprecite too much your feedback...

Many of the changes and "improvements" was made based on feed backs like yours...

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

I have had pretty good luck so far with this one. I have been sunk more than a few times, but in my latest patrol I have taken quite a beating but have managed to survive thus far. Actually one of my better patrols

RDP

Using this mod ?

That is the objective.

I will apreciated if you give opinion on this new version, subs are weak now...

Take in consideration, the mod was adjusted to Salmon, Tambor subs, with realistic reapir times option checked, and MK-14.

If you use a weak or strong sub, if you uncheck the realistic repair times, or if you use weak or strong torps... things may be so diferent.

If you use a Balao, with MK-16, and realistic repair times unchecked, your life will be slighty easy.

If you use a S Class, with realistic repair times Checked, and with MK-10.... you will have very hard times.

Some of my friends had the "illusion" of the game is easy, with the mod, but it is because the DDsa are so dummy.

If you are catched by them, and you made some stupid thing, a pair of lucky DDs passes over you can cause a kind of damage you will be not able to control.

But DDs skills are another matter.

[tater]

Actually, there is a lot I like about this! I just didn't like the huge "bite" out of every ship I attacked. Maybe just my dumb luck that all my tests have the ships break in two and float a while before sinking, lol I wouldn't keep trying it if I didn't like the idea.

My main problem is that instead of just attacking the DM of the targets, the torpedos are altered. This is a problem for me since I use hardcore torpedos mod, with high failure rate early war. So I cannot use both together.

I actually removed just your DC changes and made them as a separate mod to test with some AI sensor tweaks since I liked the idea of lower radius. I think you mentioned the sink rate was also changed, correct? I notice that (assuming the sink rate was lowered) the DDs blow themselves up more with their own DCs. (just testing your DC part of the mod).

I'd add that I completely agree with your take on outcomes being important, not the exact charge in the DC, etc.

[Snacko]

I'm going to give this a try.

I would like some you who have tried it to post your comments. This sounds like a great mod if it is well balanced. But not so great if things are too easy or too hard. So far it sounds as if it is worth checking out.

Thanks for this mod Redwine! It sounds like it took a lot of work getting it well balanced.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by tater

My main problem is that instead of just attacking the DM of the targets, the torpedos are altered. This is a problem for me since I use hardcore torpedos mod, with high failure rate early war. So I cannot use both together.

Not sure how some settings can works is they are blended with another mods, but sure... this will offer new horizonts...

Be sure this way can open new doors, that is not bad, you can explore many more options.

Originally Posted by tater

I actually removed just your DC changes and made them as a separate mod to test with some AI sensor tweaks since I liked the idea of lower radius. I think you mentioned the sink rate was also changed, correct? I notice that (assuming the sink rate was lowered) the DDs blow themselves up more with their own DCs. (just testing your DC part of the mod).

In that download site, you have the depth charges mod as a separate/stand alone one...

I changed the sink rate, and the depth precision... but that is not the cause of the DDs damaged by them selves.

It seems to happens when they runs over you and attempt to avoid a colission with another unit.

The game AI do not manage it... then, the DD release the depth charges, and stops to not colide with another DD, then it take damage by his own depth charges.

Originally Posted by tater

I'd add that I completely agree with your take on outcomes being important, not the exact charge in the DC, etc.

My idea is... you must to have an historical survival probability... to reach it, may be, only may be, you must to use in some places, non historical settings. After all, it ia a game, and do not simulates perfectly a real world.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Snacko

I'm going to give this a try.

I would like some you who have tried it to post your comments. This sounds like a great mod if it is well balanced. But not so great if things are too easy or too hard. So far it sounds as if it is worth checking out.

Thanks for this mod Redwine! It sounds like it took a lot of work getting it well balanced.

Many thanks... i agree with you, too hard or too easy, and you loss interest.

But remember, if you use stock DDs, they are a little bit easy, they needs more agresivity.

The problem is, there are some DDs in campaign, may be due to their crew rating... wich become rabid and so hard, they are few, but they are there around.

If you increase the DDs sensors sensivity, may be many of the DDs, become so good, but those few which are hard, will become soo hard...

It may be the next step to rework...

I know there is a mod to have hard DDs around there... but i never tryed it.

[Bando]

Hello Redwine,

I've installed this 1,4 mod, deinstalled 1.3 and I've seen something weird. It may be a coincidence, but when I fired 4 torpedoes at a Kongo, 2 hit near his propellors and he came to a halt. He had a list and was not going anywhere. The 2 torpedoes that missed him happened to hit (lucky me) a mogami heavy cruiser. The cruiser also developed a list and floated without propulsion. After a long wait (the DD's were not leaving very soon) and a full reload these two ships were drifting in front of my periscope. Both received additional torpedoes, both were destroyed, both capsized, and both stayed afloat upside down, like in the "poseidon" movie. I'd never seen this before, they always sink sooner or later, these did not. I've waited for hours, they stayed afloat upside down.

Is this mod related or is this coincidence?

Greatings
Bando