Was AI better in old games?

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Generally my impression is that most new games nowadays come with pretty amazing engines (including AI) but completely lacking the last stage - balancing - which takes a surpisingly large amout of time - but is just absolutely crucial to the general experience.

There you go! That hit the nail on the head.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I think when graphics were more primitive, developers put much more effort into AI than they do now.

PD

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

I think when graphics were more primitive, developers put much more effort into AI than they do now.

PD

My thoughts excatly. It seems like today's AI is either too smart or too dumb. But back when I was playin Silent Service, SHI, I wasn't as sensitive to AI. The first bad AI I noticed was SH2.

[PeriscopeDepth]

AI wasn't really better then. It just wasn't flat out broken. It was convincing and well tested.

PD

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

AI wasn't really better then. It just wasn't flat out broken. It was convincing and well tested.

PD

Yes, thats what I meant, too. It's less a question of cpu power / algorithms, but of software quality / testing time.

[ausraider]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

AI wasn't really better then. It just wasn't flat out broken. It was convincing and well tested.

PD

Yep, I third that.

Its got more commercial now, IMO.
So they're firing the titles out as quickly as possible - and with the internet now being the late coders refuge - they can release them without perfect testing - relying on the now traditional promise of a STBR downloadable patch.

Also, they are only PC Games-Sims, but I think AI in combat is relatively simple.
You stand and fight, you run for cover, you investigate a search pattern in the area of a particular trigger.
I wouldn't expect targets to behave very differently in real life.
The element of surprise can make your target look pretty stupid.
If it looks like the AI is blazing 100% on all 5 or 6 senses - we would be complaining that it is unrealistically too hard - as it usually is on the HARD setting.

The number crunching is really going to be down to animating behaviour and graphic-sound co-ordination with those animations and damage models as they get ever more detailed, supposedly.

What I really wonder at - when I get that ole 'Games ain't what they used to be.' feeling is the seemingly heavy reliance on older texture heavy graphics formats.
Its a great selling point that the game requires 1GB of RAM and a 250MB card recommended.
But in some instances - all they have to do is ante up the resolution in the textures.But it doesn't make for better graphics really...
A kind of Corporate graphics feel has crept in to newer games generally, and this I suppose is due to the graphics card explosion a few years ago.
I believe Graphics are designed now for the card as opposed to the machine, something that pre-graphics card conventions were free of.
If you go back to the days of Sub-Wars 2015 or Quake I, graphics cards weren't an issue and the effort was on algorithms and programming - so more incentive for new ways to do things graphically.
But a particular example in the early graphics card days is Unreal or Hidden and Dangerous.
H&D still looks and feels impressive to me.
And then of course Half Life set a new standard - but overall game enjoyment is of course alot more to do with than just graphics, which is why those games Sub-Wars 2015 - H&D - Half-Life stand out IMO.
However, Far Cry showed how good things could be with better gear or how 'bad' things could 'git' with better AI (hehe).

IMO graphics innovation in general is bottle-necked, with the way things have gone commercially visavi the now booming graphic card industry.

Just my amateur opinion.

Ausraider.

PS:
I know this is an AI thread - but my graphics comments are in respect to what we really mean nowadays regarding AI - that is modelling natural behaviour, which can only really be reflected graphically.
The first time you see the icy breath of a Tango through your Walther sniper sight in Rogue Spear, and then see him light up a smoke, are memorable momments.
But you don't give a damn what he does once the shootin' starts, as long as he goes down!

Regarding heavy platform sims - like Sub Command etc. I can't really say what the AI is doing there. Is it simply trigger this - trigger that -trigger the other thing, or are there other more complex combat AI routines programmed in?
EG: The enemy platforms are limited to the Equipment they have on board and have to perform their search and aquire reactions in respect of that equipment - ie. search routines for the periscope - radar - sonar at different angles and functioning exactly as the player would use his within the game. At random times etc.
Then one could see the 'Unseen' AI getting fairly complex.

[GlobalExplorer]

You might want o have a look at OOlite - the freelance effort to create a new Elite - it shows that with a good use of state machines even a single programmer can make games with good AI.

Ausraider, concerning your comments about graphics, i should note that I dont understand why I should believe that game logic / AI is left out nowadays because it is hard. I actually think that doing graphics is much harder. While I personally could certainly improve most graphic intense games with much better game logic, and without overworking myself, I found that making programs with 3D graphics is tedious - I spend way too much time with try and error (mostly to check how something looks) - until in the end I could puke when I look at my program, because I cant stand it anymore.

So I am not sure if I understand the loathness to write good AI/game logic, maybe they just hire the wrong people, or maybe they are really telling them that making a game deep is "bad".

[FAdmiral]

I spoke to John Tiller a few years back about creating an AI that would
nearly be like a human. He said that it would probably take around 10 years to program and it would be a monster in size. I think gaming devs are moving in
that direction but it won't happen overnight...

JIM

[TLAM Strike]

Last week in DW (LWAMI) I saw a Krivak FF respond to a TLAM I fired with one of his own torpedoes, deploy his Ka-27, track my @$$ (which was running away) on his Towed Array (or maybe it was the Gresha that was tracking me) and vector his Ka-27 in for a kill using two fish dropped in 1.5nm abeam of me. So lets see a Double (or triple) team of my ownship with a text book kill. The AI may not be fantastic but damn it can be good some days.