Russia blames US in missile row

[fatty]

Not much of a surprise here. The political scientists I have talked to and read re:BMD have hypothesized for a while that developing and deploying BMD would lead to a new arms race. They got it right, I think.

[dean_acheson]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rnational/home

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?...32653020070603

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by dean_acheson

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rnational/home

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?...32653020070603

I don't think drawing a parallel between those two is fair. I think Putin's motives are far, far different and have little to do with actual intensions. V.V. is certainly no Ahmadinejad.

[Steel_Tomb]

The thing that gets me is that while ordianery Russians are living on the brink of poverty, Putin is more concerned about starting a new arms race than looking after the welfare of his nations citizens. Has the West nuked Russia? NO! So why the frak should he be worried about us? He should be looking down toward the Russian/Chinese boarder, that is where the real problem is. New nuclear subs, new missiles, aircraft (hell they can't even get half of their air force in the air they rely on tourism to pay for flights in foxbats!).

Putin needs to be kicked out of power, Yeltsin must be turning in his grave. Putin's Russia is becoming more oppressive every day, freedom of speach is a thing of the past for Russians now, as is hosting peacful demonstrations, they're arrested before they even get there. I also understand that the US is upsetting the balance of power (both politically and militarily), but Putin needs to face the facts. The West hasn't attacked Russia and has no interest/motive for doing so. History has shown that things only ever got close to war when the Soviets started getting too big for their own boots.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

The thing that gets me is that while ordianery Russians are living on the brink of poverty, Putin is more concerned about starting a new arms race than looking after the welfare of his nations citizens. Has the West nuked Russia? NO! So why the frak should he be worried about us? He should be looking down toward the Russian/Chinese boarder, that is where the real problem is. New nuclear subs, new missiles, aircraft (hell they can't even get half of their air force in the air they rely on tourism to pay for flights in foxbats!).

Putin needs to be kicked out of power, Yeltsin must be turning in his grave. Putin's Russia is becoming more oppressive every day, freedom of speach is a thing of the past for Russians now, as is hosting peacful demonstrations, they're arrested before they even get there. I also understand that the US is upsetting the balance of power (both politically and militarily), but Putin needs to face the facts. The West hasn't attacked Russia and has no interest/motive for doing so. History has shown that things only ever got close to war when the Soviets started getting too big for their own boots.

Elementary clarity that often goes missing.

[CCIP]

The problem is that Putin (despite these terrible failings) has done more for ordinary Russians than anyone else has in the past... decades, really. He's given them stability. I said this and I will say it again: Putin's popularity and approval among Russians is genuine. There is no other realistic popular path; the liberal democratic path has died a quiet death in the mid-90's there. And Russian democracy's downfall started not in 1999 with the rise of Putin, but in 1993 when Yeltsin trampled over it by sending tanks to silence a democratically-elected parliament. Let that bastard turn over in his grave! He's the criminal that is largely to blame for this.

Who do you think will do more for ordinary Russians? That's what I ask. There's noone. All the good guys have either been sidelined or are dead, really. I say this as a former supporter of Yabloko (the prime liberal democratic party that rose in the early 90's, but today is struggling to maintain status as a party), and a sympathiser of General Lebed' (RIP, I'll never believe his death was an accident). And you will never get Russians to support crazies like Kasparov. Or sympathise with Khodorkovski, Berezovski, and all that other trash. Just not gonna happen.

Again, I do not support Putin. But you have to step back and ask yourself 'who else'?
If you think that democracy just happens by overturning whatever current crappy regime is in power, then I point you to Iraq. Putin was right at G8 last year: "We do not want the same democracy as in Iraq." And in general, shocking though it may sound, for most Russians today 'democracy' is a bad word. And I shudder at the thought of what you'll get if you throw out Putin (and the rest of the ex-KGB apparatus that supports him) today. You'll get either another bout of 'oligarchy' where the people will be far worse off, maybe the extreme left, or, most likely - the extreme right. Do you want a fascist Russia? I didn't think so.

As I said, the West had their chance in the early 90's to help Russian democracy and foster closer ties, as they did in many other places (see: Eastern Europe) instead of "LOL we won the Cold War! Yay! Let them squirm in their triumphant failure!" They/you blew it, and the only reason I can explain that is a classic case of Russophobia and a causeless thirst for revenge (why?).

[Tchocky]

Putin playing on Russian fear/anxiety towards the West isn't purely politics or paranoia - The expansion of NATO eastwards looks like one thing only

[XabbaRus]

Again CCIP has hit the nail on the head.

Also Steel_Tomb. About the Foxbat flights, that is alittle unfair. They have those for tourism. AFAIK the Mig-25 has gone into retirement keeping a few of those for tourist flights. I hardly think the revenue from them would count that much towards the budget. Also Putin is no fool in boosting the military. After years of neglect he had to do something. Imagine a pissed of Russian military staging a coup. Then I'd start to worry.

[TteFAboB]

Diversionism: use the pretext to re-arm before you become more vulnerable to China. It's alot better than saying: "Hey Wen, you're running out of check. Get off the high horse and don't even think about it unless you want a rain of fire in your palace.".

What do you think?

[Oberon]

Didn't know anything about Putins warning until I caught the headlines of the Times and Telegraph this morning whilst dropping them outside people doors. Read the interview with interest, and it's classic Cold War stuff he's saying, if someone spots something wrong within Russia, he points to a similar thing within the EU or the US and accuses the West of hypocrisy. It's a tried and tested tactic...

I find it interesting that he says he will target missiles on Europe when, to be perfectly honest, I'd be incredibly surprised if they were not targetted on Europe, or have had their targetting systems pointed elsewhere for the past sixty years! Certainly the nukes in the Western silos and mobile launchers, oh, and the Northern Fleet. The Pacific fleet will no doubt have Beijing on their autodial as well as Seattle, San Fran, etc.

The nuclear forces of Russia are probably the forces in the best shape I should imagine, although if current figures are to be believed (and I personally don't believe them), only just over half of their missiles are currently servicable.

I agree with Skybird though, plonking a load of ABM stuff in former WP territory is asking for trouble, I mean, there's supporting former Eastern Bloc countries, and then there's using them to piss off Russia in the guise of defending from Iran. Put the ABM in Greece and Italy, you can stick the radar in South Poland, and maybe another radar in Greece...it should have enough range. Hell, you could even try to work with Russia to put in place this system, instead of just saying "Yeah, I'm gonna stick this system here in your back porch, sorry about the noise and the E-fields."
Admittedly Russia would probably tell you where to go, but at least the offer would have been on the table.

Yes...it does look like a second Cold War is on the table, doesn't it?

Wonder if ebay has any of the old 'Protect and Survive' leaflets on it... :hmm:

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Wonder if ebay has any of the old 'Protect and Survive' leaflets on it... :hmm:

Next best thing.

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Elementary clarity that often goes missing.

Unfortunately, if you ask the citizens of many countries, they would rather be powerful than prosperous.

I mean, despite 50 years of trying to discredit him, Stalin is still amazingly popular in Russia.

India, Pakistan, China, North Korea, and even the United States although we are so rich the effect is well hidden. As Ike said, 1 destroyer = housing for 8000 people.

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by CCIP

The problem is that Putin (despite these terrible failings) has done more for ordinary Russians than anyone else has in the past... decades, really. He's given them stability. I said this and I will say it again: Putin's popularity and approval among Russians is genuine. There is no other realistic popular path; the liberal democratic path has died a quiet death in the mid-90's there. And Russian democracy's downfall started not in 1999 with the rise of Putin, but in 1993 when Yeltsin trampled over it by sending tanks to silence a democratically-elected parliament. Let that bastard turn over in his grave! He's the criminal that is largely to blame for this.

Who do you think will do more for ordinary Russians? That's what I ask. There's noone. All the good guys have either been sidelined or are dead, really. I say this as a former supporter of Yabloko (the prime liberal democratic party that rose in the early 90's, but today is struggling to maintain status as a party), and a sympathiser of General Lebed' (RIP, I'll never believe his death was an accident). And you will never get Russians to support crazies like Kasparov. Or sympathise with Khodorkovski, Berezovski, and all that other trash. Just not gonna happen.

Again, I do not support Putin. But you have to step back and ask yourself 'who else'?
If you think that democracy just happens by overturning whatever current crappy regime is in power, then I point you to Iraq. Putin was right at G8 last year: "We do not want the same democracy as in Iraq." And in general, shocking though it may sound, for most Russians today 'democracy' is a bad word. And I shudder at the thought of what you'll get if you throw out Putin (and the rest of the ex-KGB apparatus that supports him) today. You'll get either another bout of 'oligarchy' where the people will be far worse off, maybe the extreme left, or, most likely - the extreme right. Do you want a fascist Russia? I didn't think so.

As I said, the West had their chance in the early 90's to help Russian democracy and foster closer ties, as they did in many other places (see: Eastern Europe) instead of "LOL we won the Cold War! Yay! Let them squirm in their triumphant failure!" They/you blew it, and the only reason I can explain that is a classic case of Russophobia and a causeless thirst for revenge (why?).

I don't think it was revenge, but the West was scared of losing their whole investment like after the 1917 Revolution. There was no real rule of law. A company would have to negotiote with the National, Regional, and Local Government, and still not be sure they had all the proper paperwork etc.

[The Avon Lady]

Russian chess champion Gary Kasparov was in the news back in April when he was arrested during a pro-democracy demonstration his "Coalition for Democracy in Russia" helped organize.

The organization's website is TheOtherRussia.org.

See Kasparov's recent article in BusinessWeek, Putin's Critics: A Web Strategy.

[dean_acheson]

And everybody lived happily ever after.....:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: