R. Holbrooke: "Worse than even Vietnam"

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Pull out, and minor parts of the military, the complete ultra-right, the israel-lobby an parts of the republican voters will burn you.

What drivel!

One of the survey takers, Skybird?

BTW, regarding at least one Vietnam versus Iraq statistic:

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

What drivel!

One of the survey takers, Skybird?

BTW, regarding at least one Vietnam versus Iraq statistic:

Funny because I thought he had a point.

"The war in Iraq shares parallels with both the Vietnam War a generation ago and the Spanish-American War a century earlier—massive civilian deaths and torture are characteristics of all three imperial interventions."

See http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1295

[Skybird]

Although Holbrooke has a past as soldier in Vietnam, without doubt he referred to Vietnam from a perspective of him being diplomatically involved in the negotiations about Vietnam, and a political perspective. And from that perspective he is right - the Iraq mess is far more difficukt to "solve" than Vietnam ever was. The stakes do not compare, and the strategical losses and foreign-political damages for the US (fro Iraq) are so much higher.

As Robbo indicated, the loss in civilian lifes, and the level of general brutality around, should not be ignored, too. As we know the estimations vary widely and reach as high as into the high hundreds of thousands.

Both wars also compare in terms of political interference with the needs of the military to conduct successful combat operations, and lacking efficiency of the military to successfully confront the enemy by conditions choosen by American forces. It is the enemy moving and acting at will, with the US unable to stop this, in both wars.

You illustrate yourself what I summed up as the "Israel-lobby", AL. Don't get me wrong in that, it is not meant as a cheap side-kick at Israelis, or Jews. But Israel has formulated and held a clearly perceivable position of wanting to keep the conflict burning, you yourself claim that it helps to reduce terrorism in the world by attracting all terrorists to Iraq, and keep them busy there so that they canot become active somewhere else - a strange theory, but you repeatedly did say so. Your nation does not hide that it seeks massive pressure and military support in confronting Iran, no matter how silly the chances, no matter the overall cost. Your nation has massive influence in America, and influences American foreign politics, and for quite some conservatives one-sided and often very biased support for Israel is a non-negotiable precondtiojn of all their political acting. - Well, all this I summed up as "Israel-lobby". We both know you will not agree with me and I will not agree with your different views on this. So it goes.

"Appeal for courage.org?" Courage cannot replace reason to pick wisely time, place and conditions. Violating this is what the failure in Iraq is basing upon: the mouth has been bigger than the brain.

[Heibges]

I don't think Israel cared one way another about Iraq or Sadaam Hussein. They certainly weren't worried about any WMD's or they would have resolved the issue themselves like with the Iraqi Reactor and the Supergun.

Bush is 100% resonsible for the situation in Iraq.

This strong Jewish lobby in the United States just does not exist. I was reading an interesting article in the Jeruselum Post a few months back. It talked about the marked lack of support Israel receives from the largely very liberal Jewish community in the United States, and about the unlikely support Israel receives from the Christian Far Right in the United States.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Although Holbrooke has a past as soldier in Vietnam,

Holbrooke was never a soldier, sailor, airman or marine.

[Tchocky]

From wiki:

• 1963-1966 - Vietnam: diplomatic service as a provincial representative for the Agency for International Development (AID), then staff assistant to Ambassadors'Maxwell Taylor and Henry Cabot Lodge.
• 1966 - 1968- White House: Vietnam staff of President Lyndon Johnson

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Holbrooke was never a soldier, sailor, airman or marine.

Re-checked, and confirmed. I stand corrected.

He was member of Johnson's staff and was involved in creating the so-called Pentagon-Papers that proved that there were preparations for the war (Vietnam) long time in advance, and that the information of the public intentionally was misleading and manipulating. "Staff" and "Pentagon" left a wrong echo in my mind.

Note the difference in critcal tone in the German

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Holbrooke

and English wikipedia-entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Holbrooke.