making SH4 more realistic and challenging pt 2: harbor massacres

U-Bones · 05-07-07, 10:30 AM

I think a more realistic scenario would be to camp in the channels outside the port, and wait for the big fish to swim out...

Something about port raiding and realism leaves an oxymoronic taste in my mouth. Reminds me of camping the ports in SH1... very gamey. I know that it happened some, but most ports were probably death traps for a sub...

tater · 05-07-07, 10:48 AM

The reality is that until the japanese belatedly adopted convoys as a standard in 1944, ASW was not done by "escorts" it was a regional thing. A given port would have some pitiful number of 2d rate ships for ASW work, and they would patrol important areas nearby their home port.

I'd expect the home port would see much coming and going by those ASW ships/craft.

kikn79 · 05-07-07, 11:07 AM

My current mission is to recon and photograph any enemy BBs in the Koror harbor. I am having a little difficulty in sneaking in to photograph (and hopefully blow up) the battleships that are in port as there are six (yes, SIX!!) destroyers seemingly on full alert guarding the entrance. Not wanting to be on eternal patrol just yet, I would like to sneak into the harbor and avoid a fire fight with all the DDs. I don't know if this is ComSubPac's way of offing me or what but it seems nearly impossible.
I was able to sneak in close enough to paint the harbor with radar and it seems there is only one BB in port along with a few merchies. It is going to be one heck of a challenge to get in there.

Chuck

AntEater · 05-07-07, 11:33 AM

One thing that needs to be done is actually to replace all those "ports" in the pacific with villages
I strongly suspect our favorite rumanians used current imagery of the pacific as a base for their map. Honiara town, for example, did not exist in 1942.
There could be 1-2 small merchants and maybe lots of stationary sampans off those villages and no protection at all. If somebody has an urge to massacre sampans, he can...
"real" ports in Japan and Truk (which definitely needs to be added) and other territories should be heavily mined.
One other thing is simply to remove those unrealistic photo recons in the inland sea and Tokyo bay. They could be replaced with more recons elsewhere.

tater · 05-07-07, 11:49 AM

Actually, the problem with Truk (and every other Atoll) is the lack of a REEF. Truk Lagoon had no "port" even as big as the smallest SH4 port object. It was an anchorage. There were only a few gaps in the reef, and they were not all that much wider than a couple of ship beam widths or maybe ship lengths. Getting inside Truk Lagoon should basically be impossible.

The only possible ways in for a sub, even on the sirface are marked on that pic as a "pass."
We really need "reef" objects.

The

AntEater · 05-07-07, 12:05 PM

Would it be possible to create an "invisible" barrier object?

(ok, outrageous avatar gone...)

FAdmiral · 05-07-07, 12:32 PM

A "Bungo Pete" guarding every large Japanese harbor. Now that would keep
all the riff-raff out

JIM

vindex · 05-07-07, 12:37 PM

I definitely vote for reefs, even if it's just a really shallow area marked on the map. It's just not the Pacific without reefs.

05-07-07, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAdmiral

A "Bungo Pete" guarding every large Japanese harbor. Now that would keep
all the riff-raff out

JIM

this could work!
just in case, make TWO of them per harbor...

jhelix70 · 05-07-07, 01:22 PM

So reefs arent modelled? I figured it would at least be in as an area of very shallow water.

Quote:

I think a more realistic scenario would be to camp in the channels outside the port, and wait for the big fish to swim out...

Have we confirmed that ships actually go in and out? Or do ships appear and disappear in ports/convoys by magic?

tycho102 · 05-07-07, 01:53 PM

Between sub-nets and shallows, I would have thought that reefs were "modeled". They ain't?

I've always assumed the ease of port sneaks was just due to simulation contstraints of actors (ships and artillery lookouts) and artificial intelligence. There is the little issue of being able to (basically) sink moored ships with little repercussion, provided that you fire torps from as long range as possible.

Ships appear by magic in ports, just outside your detection range.

tater · 05-07-07, 02:12 PM

The shallows are not shallow enough. The surf breaks on the reefs, so even at high tide they should be within a meter or two of the surface. Running aground in game requires actually hitting the shore I think.

My thought was to create some large arc-shaped objects (large meaning MILES (5-10?) long in a gentle curve) and they can have a texture map of reef stuff. If they were made to break the surface, they'd need a "surf-like" outer texture facing the sea at the water line and above so you could spot the reef from the periscope. The objects could be VERY simple. Do a few types to match longer segments of important reefs like Truk, then reuse them throughout the map rotated as needed.

U-Bones · 05-07-07, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhelix70

So reefs arent modelled? I figured it would at least be in as an area of very shallow water.

Quote:

I think a more realistic scenario would be to camp in the channels outside the port, and wait for the big fish to swim out...

Have we confirmed that ships actually go in and out? Or do ships appear and disappear in ports/convoys by magic?

I was speaking to reality, not the game, ie it would be more likely that a skipper would be ordered to patrol an approach or chokepoint than to assault or invade a port...

Usually scripted convoys pop and depop.

05-07-07, 11:07 AM	#3
kikn79 Medic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 166 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Not too easy for me. My current mission is to recon and photograph any enemy BBs in the Koror harbor. I am having a little difficulty in sneaking in to photograph (and hopefully blow up) the battleships that are in port as there are six (yes, SIX!!) destroyers seemingly on full alert guarding the entrance. Not wanting to be on eternal patrol just yet, I would like to sneak into the harbor and avoid a fire fight with all the DDs. I don't know if this is ComSubPac's way of offing me or what but it seems nearly impossible. I was able to sneak in close enough to paint the harbor with radar and it seems there is only one BB in port along with a few merchies. It is going to be one heck of a challenge to get in there. Chuck

05-07-07, 11:33 AM	#4
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	One thing that needs to be done is actually to replace all those "ports" in the pacific with villages I strongly suspect our favorite rumanians used current imagery of the pacific as a base for their map. Honiara town, for example, did not exist in 1942. There could be 1-2 small merchants and maybe lots of stationary sampans off those villages and no protection at all. If somebody has an urge to massacre sampans, he can... "real" ports in Japan and Truk (which definitely needs to be added) and other territories should be heavily mined. One other thing is simply to remove those unrealistic photo recons in the inland sea and Tokyo bay. They could be replaced with more recons elsewhere. __________________

05-07-07, 12:05 PM	#6
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Would it be possible to create an "invisible" barrier object? (ok, outrageous avatar gone...) __________________

05-07-07, 12:32 PM	#7
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	A "Bungo Pete" guarding every large Japanese harbor. Now that would keep all the riff-raff out JIM __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

05-07-07, 10:30 AM	#1
U-Bones Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Treading Water Posts: 847 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	I think a more realistic scenario would be to camp in the channels outside the port, and wait for the big fish to swim out... Something about port raiding and realism leaves an oxymoronic taste in my mouth. Reminds me of camping the ports in SH1... very gamey. I know that it happened some, but most ports were probably death traps for a sub...

05-07-07, 10:48 AM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The reality is that until the japanese belatedly adopted convoys as a standard in 1944, ASW was not done by "escorts" it was a regional thing. A given port would have some pitiful number of 2d rate ships for ASW work, and they would patrol important areas nearby their home port. I'd expect the home port would see much coming and going by those ASW ships/craft.

05-07-07, 11:49 AM	#5
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Actually, the problem with Truk (and every other Atoll) is the lack of a REEF. Truk Lagoon had no "port" even as big as the smallest SH4 port object. It was an anchorage. There were only a few gaps in the reef, and they were not all that much wider than a couple of ship beam widths or maybe ship lengths. Getting inside Truk Lagoon should basically be impossible. The only possible ways in for a sub, even on the sirface are marked on that pic as a "pass." We really need "reef" objects. The

05-07-07, 12:37 PM	#8
vindex Planesman Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 192 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	I definitely vote for reefs, even if it's just a really shallow area marked on the map. It's just not the Pacific without reefs.

05-07-07, 01:53 PM	#11
tycho102 Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,100 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Between sub-nets and shallows, I would have thought that reefs were "modeled". They ain't? I've always assumed the ease of port sneaks was just due to simulation contstraints of actors (ships and artillery lookouts) and artificial intelligence. There is the little issue of being able to (basically) sink moored ships with little repercussion, provided that you fire torps from as long range as possible. Ships appear by magic in ports, just outside your detection range.

05-07-07, 02:12 PM	#12
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The shallows are not shallow enough. The surf breaks on the reefs, so even at high tide they should be within a meter or two of the surface. Running aground in game requires actually hitting the shore I think. My thought was to create some large arc-shaped objects (large meaning MILES (5-10?) long in a gentle curve) and they can have a texture map of reef stuff. If they were made to break the surface, they'd need a "surf-like" outer texture facing the sea at the water line and above so you could spot the reef from the periscope. The objects could be VERY simple. Do a few types to match longer segments of important reefs like Truk, then reuse them throughout the map rotated as needed.