Soviet War Memorial in Estonia

[Heibges]

Two seperate issues, but two issues with a little synergy.

Jews were the traditional enemy in Eastern Europe: western Russia and Poland.

Except for in France during the Dreyfus Affair, anti-Semitism was much more open in Eastern Europe than in Western Europe.

There were frequent "pogroms" against the Jews.

There was a Russian conservative politician, who had called for a pogrom in 1990.

OT: In the greatest irony of all, Germany is probably the only country that ever welcomed Eastern European Jews, and before Hitler, German Jews were almost totally assimilated.

[XabbaRus]

That's a shame and quite callous. Even if the government didn't care about them no need to join them. There was a better way to do this and I believe the Estonian government deliberately chose this time of year to move it. There has been a strong upsurge of nationalism in Estonia of late with a rise of the far right.

What about the Russians who live in Estonia by dint of being born there? Did they not deserve citizenship when Estonia became independent.

It is like Scotland became independent but English people who have lived in Scotland for a long time or were born there are suddenly deemed non citizens unless they have to jump through hoops to get it even if they have a home and work there.

Hmm we had a a large number of Jews too before WWII of them was even Prime Minister so it wasn't just Germany.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Ah if only things were that simple.

This conflict is simple. Estonia is a sovereign nation that can do anything it wants with its monuments, period. The fact is that Estonia was occupied by Soviet Union but Russia doesnt admit to this fact. It pisses me of to see Russians in Estonia rioting and yelling "Rossia"! Are they maybe living in the wrong country if they feel like that? Russia is also wageing a huge disinformation campaign through the media, A la FSB.
I am a frequent visitor to Estonia, i have an Estonian gf and the town i live in has a large Estonian minority. My experience with Estonias ethnic Russians is that most of them live in the past, they are bitter that they are not in power anymore. Some even refuse to learn Estonian, hence not having citizenship.. I believe big reason is the state controlled Russian media, that they mainly follow, that manipulates them a lot.
The attacks on Estonias internet connections and ambassadors of Estonia and Sweden happened with Putins blessing, we all know it.
The thing that pissed the Finns on a big scale in this conflict was when Russia said Finland should give special status guranteed by law to the 50.000 Russians living in Finland. They have lived here for something like 10-15 years!! And the next day they said Finland should stay of NATO. Emotions and hatred are building up in the Baltic region, people talk about violent acts towards the Russians. Most think the Russians have gone too far and want to hear apologies but we know that will never happen. Maybe other EU and NATO countries should start to wake up on this situation by now, before it goes any futher.

[Happy Times]

That's a shame and quite callous. Even if the government didn't care about them no need to join them. There was a better way to do this and I believe the Estonian government deliberately chose this time of year to move it. There has been a strong upsurge of nationalism in Estonia of late with a rise of the far right.

Are you serious?! Thats BS, give me some source that isnt Russian. Russia is the only country in the region with extreme nationalism on the rise..

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

And the next day they said Finland should stay of NATO.

Now this one made me angry when I heard about it. The russians are basically threatening us not to join NATO or else Finland would come a threat to Russia and Russia would have to move more troops to the border regions to "be safe". I think Putin is becoming a tad paranoid, dont you think?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

What about the Russians who live in Estonia by dint of being born there? Did they not deserve citizenship when Estonia became independent.

Why do you assume so? See the meaning of Jus Sanguinis. Same could be true of England and Scotland, if and when.

Hmm we had a a large number of Jews too before WWII of them was even Prime Minister so it wasn't just Germany.

You cannot compare. Jews were constantly harrassed throughout the centuries in Russia.

In contrast, in Germany, in the latter half of the 19th century, once European emancipation got even Germany to drop its mdeievil anti-Jewish laws and edicts, opportunities that never existed before opened up throughout much of Germany, in spite of the continuing loathing of Jews by so many Germans.

[Happy Times]

Facts about Estonia in WWII


8 May: Memorial Day for the victims of World War II
03 May 2007

By its resolution of 22 November 2004, the United Nations General Assembly declared 8 and 9 May as a time of remembrance and reconciliation, and invited Member States, United Nations bodies, non-governmental organizations and individuals to observe annually either one or both of those days in an appropriate manner, to pay tribute to all those who lost their lives in the Second World War. Estonia also supported this resolution.

The Republic of Estonia did not participate in World War II as an independent state. The secret pre-war agreement (the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact) signed between fascist Germany and communist Russia resulted in the annexation of Estonia and the other Baltic States by the Red Army as well as the forced incorporation of the Baltic States into the Soviet Union. From 1941-1944, Estonia was the field for battles between Germany and the Soviet Union. The occupation regimes changed several times. Estonian citizens were forced to participate in war activities by the two occupying regimes, Germany and the Soviet Union.
In serious violation of the international law of war, Estonian soldiers were conscripted to fight in the forces of both occupiers.

Thus, we can say that World War II began for Estonia in 1940 with the occupation by the Red Army and the end of the war came in 1991 with the restoration of Estonian independence followed by the withdrawal of the last foreign military troops from Estonia in 1994. Western countries including the United States, the United Kingdom and France never recognised the occupation of the Republic of Estonia.

In Europe and the United States, 8 May is celebrated as the end of World War II. In Estonia, 8 May will be celebrated as a day of remembrance for those who fell in World War II as well as for the victims of the repressions and crimes committed by the occupiers.


Estonia and World War II – Facts
The Estonian Government declared its complete neutrality at the beginning of World War II.

The Soviet Union occupied Estonia in 1940. The aggression was based on the secret pre-war agreement (the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact) signed between the Soviet Union and Germany. The pact distributed European countries between the two occupiers. Allied Hitler and Stalin divided up half of Europe.

After the occupation of Estonia, World War II battles made their way back to Estonia in June 1941 with former allies Germany and the Soviet Union fighting each other. During these battles from July-October 1941, Estonia became completely occupied by Hitler’s German forces.

Using the political situation, as German forces were withdrawing and Soviet forces had not yet reoccupied the country, acting Estonian President Jüri Uluots, operating underground, appointed a new government led by Otto Tief on 18 September 1944. This was a heroic attempt at restoring Estonian independence, which was not recognised by Germany or by the Soviet Union who was reoccupying Estonia.

In 1944, the Soviet Union reoccupied Estonia, but not without an attempt being made at restoring Estonian independence. The vacuum created by one occupying force leaving and the other arriving gave the opportunity to raise the Estonian tricolour and make a restoration attempt.

The second Soviet occupation ended in 1991 with the restoration of Estonian independence and the last foreign military forces left Estonia in 1994.

Estonian citizens in foreign military forces
Violating international law, the Soviet Union forced Estonian soldiers including conscripts to serve in the occupying military forces. At the same time, practically the entire officer corps was murdered. During the war with Germany, more than 33 000 Estonian citizens were "mobilised" to other parts of the Soviet Union, where the majority were placed into work camps serving in the prison camp system. At least one-third died in the first year of imprisonment due to starvation, disease and strenuous work requirements. In 1942, the Red Army 8th Rifle Corps was formed consisting of the survivors and other Estonians who had lived in the Soviet Union prior to World War II.

Until 1943, no Estonian citizens had been mobilised into the occupying German military forces. This was based on Nazi ideology (since Estonians were not considered to be "pure" Aryans, they were not trustworthy). Using the anger that had grown among Estonians, because of the repressions and sufferings caused by the Soviet occupants, a small amount of volunteers were recruited. These men served to a limited extent on the war front or were responsible for protecting the rear.

When the situation on the eastern front became critical for the Germans, several forced recruitments and mobilisations took place throughout the Estonia territory from 1943-1944. The mobilised Estonians were not taken into the German National Army, the Wehrmacht, but were rather mobilised into security and attack units including Waffen SS units. The mobilisation of citizens of occupied territories is prohibited by the international law of war. Thus, the Germans attempted to hide this by presenting the mobilised men as volunteers in military auxiliary services (allowed by the international law of war) or as volunteers in the Estonian Legion. However, what occurred was clearly the mobilisation of an occupied territory’s citizens into foreign military forces. All together, up to 70 000 Estonian citizens were mobilised on Estonian territory into various units.

In the beginning of 1944, Estonia’s underground National Committee and its constitutional Prime Minister acting as President Jüri Uluots called upon Estonians not to avoid the mobilisation irrespective of the fact that the mobilisation was in violation of international law. They saw that with German weapons they could create a National Army and by that prevent a new Soviet occupation and restore Estonia’s independence. Despite Germany’s refusal to recognise the restoration of Estonia’s independence, there was hope that by not fighting the mobilisation a new occupation could be avoided – it was not doubted that Germany would lose the war. Estonian patriots were convinced that the organisation of post-war Europe would be based on the principles of the 1941 Atlantic Charter*

From 1943-1944, approximately 3 400 Estonians escaped to Finland and joined the Finnish Army to avoid the German mobilisation. Half of them returned to Estonia in 1944 to support with arms the Estonian attempt to restore independence.

After reoccupying Estonia in the autumn of 1944, the Soviet forces continued the mobilisation of Estonian citizens.

Over 100 000 Estonian citizens, representing close to 10% of the population, were mobilised by the two occupants during World War II. The Stalin regime did not recognise any of the principles of the Atlantic Charter. The occupation continued after World War II and was accompanied by genocide. In 1949, tens of thousands of Estonians were deported from their homes to Siberia.

The forced enlistment of Estonians into the military forces of the occupying regime continued until Estonia’s restoration of independence in 1991.

Estonian casualties of World War II
The Estonian population in October 1939 was 1 130 000 people.

At the end of 1945, approximately 900 000 people lived in Estonia. Thus, Estonia had lost one-fifth of its pre-war population.
In addition to which, several traditional Estonian national minorities had either left or had been destroyed – Germans, Swedes and Jews.

Approximately 80 000 Estonians from the pre-war population had escaped or emigrated and did not return to Estonia (including approximately 7 000 ethnic Swedes). In addition to this, approximately 20 000, so-called Baltic Germans, settled in Germany.
In 1941, the Soviet regime deported 400 Jews to Siberia (10% of the Jewish community in Estonia). From 1941-1944, 1 000 Jews living in Estonia were killed by the German occupiers, practically all who had not been able to escape from Estonia. The Nazi regime also killed citizens of other countries in their concentration camps in Estonia, primarily Jews.

From 1940-1945 at the least 70 000-75 000 Estonians died as victims of the occupations and World War II representing 6-7% of Estonia’s pre-war population. Largely as a result of World War II, the population of ethnic Estonians has still not reached its pre-war levels.

The Estonian state and its people were one of the first victims of World War II. Estonia’s fate - the violent annihilation of its independence – was decided by the same deal (the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact) with which fascist Germany drew confidence and courage to trigger World War II by attacking Poland. Having lost their independence, the citizens of Estonia also became the victims of aggression by foreign powers. Estonian citizens were forced to fight in the armies of the occupying countries. Estonian soldiers were not able to fight in their own country’s uniforms, for their own country, for the freedom of their people.

As a democratic country, Estonia does not consider to be criminals those who were forcefully enlisted to fight for the occupation regimes nor see the need for them to be punished. This position was used by Western democracies following World War II, for example, fighting on the German side did not prevent the obtaining of residence permits or citizenship in these countries. Exceptions were those who committed crimes against humanity by participating in the repressions carried out by the occupying powers. With regret, it must be noted that some people, for various reasons, accepted the ideologies of the totalitarian regimes and participated in the violence. The majority of the people condemned this kind of behaviour remaining true to their state and democratic ideals.

The Estonian soldiers who lost the right to make their own decisions and choices were victims just like all other Estonian citizens who suffered because of this war.

Belonging to those who had lost the most due to World War II, the Estonian people shared its solidarity and support with all countries and peoples, who were fighting for their independence and sovereignty. Many were victorious 60 years ago, but some were not. As a result of World War II, Estonia lost its independence and experienced great losses of its people. Thus, Estonia will celebrate 8 May as the end of World War II in Europe, but primarily as a day of remembrance for the victims and the fallen. This day did not bring freedom to Estonia.

English translation of the draft Declaration of the Government of the Republic of Estonia compiled by Foreign Minister August Rei in September 1944

__________________________________________________ ___________

8 May 2007 Events of the Commemoration day for the victims of World War II in Estonia

09.30 Laying of a wreath at the Holocaust memorial in Klooga
11.00 Laying of a wreath at the Garrison Cemetery (14 Filtri tee)
11.30 Commemorating of German, Russian and Estonian fallen
soldiers at Maarjamäe memorial

Members of the Estonian Government and the diplomatic corps of Tallinn are invited to take part in the events.

Estonia will be represented by its diplomatic representatives in countries holding commemorative events for the victims of World War II.

__________________________________________________ ___________

* British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and American President Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the Atlantic Charter on 14 August 1941, where they wish to see sovereign rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly deprived of them.

http://www.vm.ee/estonia/pea_172/kat_509/5379.html

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Now this one made me angry when I heard about it. The russians are basically threatening us not to join NATO or else Finland would come a threat to Russia and Russia would have to move more troops to the border regions to "be safe". I think Putin is becoming a tad paranoid, dont you think?

He is not paranoid, he just wants to restore what was lost. He has said that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a geopolitical catastrophy. But he must be crazy letting things this far. Any moment Russians could be attacked in Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania or Sweden. Then this will come even bigger crisis.

[AntEater]

Morals aside, as a small nation, you simply don't piss off your big neighbour (except if your big neighbour is Germany, then the big neighbour will just say you're right).
Also, the current russians living in Estonia can hardly be blamed for Stalin and I have experienced firsthand the troubles this strange estonian "quasi-citizenship" can cause.

The whole memorial affair was just the apparent reason, a reason for ethnic russians to vent their anger on their (or not really theirs, because the can't elect it) government.
My best friend married a estonian-russian and ran into endless trouble because of her "alien's passport".
There's some double standard regarding the treatment of russians here.
If any european country would treat, lets say Turks or whatever muslims the way the Baltic states treat Russians, the whole ummah, every PC politician and half the press would gang up on them. Or remember when Austria elected Haider?
Haider is a choir boy against the leadership of all baltic states regarding nationalism and treatment of foreigners. Seems that racism is ok in the EU as long as it is directed against russians.
So if you don't want to give the russians an excuse for being agressive to you, simply don't treat russians as second class citizens.
The baltic states remind me of the "big dog and mee-too" syndrome...

[TteFAboB]

Or they can pack up and cross the border since Russia is right next door.

[XabbaRus]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Are you serious?! Thats BS, give me some source that isnt Russian. Russia is the only country in the region with extreme nationalism on the rise..

Really you didn't read the article in the Guardian. Sorry it was teh Guardian guess taht is too lefty liberal.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by AntEater

Morals aside, as a small nation, you simply don't piss off your big neighbour (except if your big neighbour is Germany, then the big neighbour will just say you're right).
Also, the current russians living in Estonia can hardly be blamed for Stalin and I have experienced firsthand the troubles this strange estonian "quasi-citizenship" can cause.

The whole memorial affair was just the apparent reason, a reason for ethnic russians to vent their anger on their (or not really theirs, because the can't elect it) government.
My best friend married a estonian-russian and ran into endless trouble because of her "alien's passport".
There's some double standard regarding the treatment of russians here.
If any european country would treat, lets say Turks or whatever muslims the way the Baltic states treat Russians, the whole ummah, every PC politician and half the press would gang up on them. Or remember when Austria elected Haider?
Haider is a choir boy against the leadership of all baltic states regarding nationalism and treatment of foreigners. Seems that racism is ok in the EU as long as it is directed against russians.
So if you don't want to give the russians an excuse for being agressive to you, simply don't treat russians as second class citizens.
The baltic states remind me of the "big dog and mee-too" syndrome...

Well Finns are called stubborn and since Estonians are close relatives it seem to run in the family.:p I personally dont give **** about the feelings of Russians. Many monuments/graves of Finnish soldiers in Karelia have been repeatedly vandalized. I would rather die than loose my freedom, i live like that and have no fear. The Russians refuse to learn the local language, thats the only obstacle to being a citizen.
They have to decide if they want to be Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian or Russian. Nobody wants a fifth colum in their country, that is loyal to a neighbouring dictatorship. And thanks for nothing Germany, Merkel had no comment. Its not like you dont have a part in this present situation.:p

[XabbaRus]

What AntEater said is a fair point.

It certainly does seem that it is OK to be racist towards Russians that's ok.
Like I said immediately Russians bad, everyone else good. It's not just having to learn the language that blocks the way to becoming a citizen, there is still active discrimination towards the Russian population whether they have got their citizenship or not. Funny I know some Russians who live in the Baltic states, were born there anc consider it home, decent Russians too. Everything I have seen in the press that is non Russian seesm to demonise all Russians as a whole. Also up sticks and move next door. Not that simple.

Oh and one thing, given the choice of living under communism or facism. I'd choose the USSR anyday.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Really you didn't read the article in the Guardian. Sorry it was teh Guardian guess taht is too lefty liberal.

It picked some events, even out of context and claimed there was large scale right wing movement in the Baltic states. Has this commie reporter written about the ultra nationalism rising in Russia..

[AntEater]

Yes, Estonians are stubborn.
But fifth column or not, if that column is at least 25 per cent of your own population then you have two options: Yugoslavian style ethnic cleansing or some kind of modus vivendi. Problem is, ethnic cleansing isnt really that popular nowadays and not a good idea with such neighbours.
Strangely, I know both "real" Estonians and russians from there (and jews who tend to side with the russians) and I havent sofar run into any fifth columnists, monsters, terrorists or whatever.
But that over hyped nationalism does seem strange to me.
Problem is, the european Union is not Estonia's big brother to hide behind after throwing stones at the neighbour's big boy.

The sad fact remains that WW2 destroyed that unique baltic culture, where balts, swedes and germans lived together.