The Road to America

This arcticle was obviously written for internal German consumption only, to make this woman look half way descent. The US doesn't give a damn what the German gov't or the German people have to say. The very thought that Germany is of parity with the US only shows the mindset that plunged the world into war twice in the 20th century. You folks should just recognize the fact that your nation is second tier. Your county's position on all things international should be your guide.

Germany
Hitler spooked them so bad they are afraid to have a Government. Germany is to politics what reformed alcoholics are to drinking - preachy and sanctimonious, but underneath you know they’re jonesing for another little jolt of the hard stuff, which is why they occasionally pass laws banning free speech and stuff. They probably have a President or something like that. Germans make the best creepy evil masterminds, and other vilians.

[Tchocky]

Yeah, that mindset is much better....

....
........

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Yeah, that mindset is much better....

....
........

I knew you'd be here soon Tchocky, my friend. It's the truth nothing more.

[Tchocky]

Uh huh.

You're arguing that "we're better than you" is a healthier mindset?

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Uh huh.

You're arguing that "we're better than you" is a healthier mindset?

I'm not making that argument. Its unfortunate that you see it that way. My argument is that the arcticle was for internal German consumption. Everything after that is supporting that satement.

PS FYI I am majoritatively German in heritage. My immediate family was bombed during WWII in the town of Kassel.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by waste gate

I'm not making that argument. Its unfortunate that you see it that way.

Must have misread you then.

The very thought that Germany is of parity with the US only shows the mindset that plunged the world into war twice in the 20th century. You folks should just recognize the fact that your nation is second tier.

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Must have misread you then.

If it makes you feel better Ireland is third tier.:rotfl: :rotfl:

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by waste gate

The US doesn't give a damn what the German gov't or the German people have to say.

Yeah, you don't speak for all of us.

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Yeah, you don't speak for all of us.

I thought that was obvious. All posts are based on opinion, are they not? Unlike some countries (Germany, as example) that is still allowed in the US.

EDIT: The internal consumption is to show that when US missles arrive on German soil it's because the German gov't negotiated it. It gives the German gov't cover as to how effective they were in making the US listen to their opinion. After all the US listens to Germany\.

EDIT 2: I'm very cinical when it comes to gov't. No matter which gov't it is.

[AntEater]

I'm afraid the waste gate is right.
The article is wishful thinking.
The article is a english version of a german editorial which I don't agree to.
The "transatlantic faction" (to which Merkel does not defintily belong, but which is strong in her party) is harboring the same illusions regarding the US than the brits do.
That the US can be somehow controlled or prodded into the proper direction by "lesser" powers. Not even the brits could do that, in Iraq... And the brits do have nuclear weapons and all the big boy's toys the germans dont have.
IMHO it is a mistake to seek to have a transatlantic alliance as close as in the cold war days. The US have other problems than Europe. The only thing the US has done sofar was trying to start the cold war again and generally using every opportunity to sabotage the EU by their east european proxies like Poland.
The US doesnt need Europe right now and has no interest here except eliminating a potential rival. That is fine and the US as a superpower in decline has every right to do so, but we should not be so stupid as to help them.
But SPIEGEL online definitely sounds nowadays like it has been bought by Rupert Murdoch. I am not sure about the printed version of Spiegel (which used to be quite left wing) but the online version is sadly in the hands of transatlantic imbeciles like Christian Malzahn an such.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by AntEater

But SPIEGEL online definitely sounds nowadays like it has been bought by Rupert Murdoch.

You didn't have this in mind, did you? :hmm:

Both opinions expressed here are very sad indeed. I think the times will come when both the US and Europe will realize how much they will need each other. Those will not be good times. Who will need who first? It's irrelevant but it will happen.

Winston Churchill understood this.

[AntEater]

Strange thing is, while Spiegel and other transatlantics are quick to bash "antiamericanism", their image of the US is almost as distorted.
The "antiamericans" often see the US as the root of all evil.
The transatlantic faction sees the US as some kind of benevolent spirit, you only have to be nice to it and you will be showered with care packages, marshall plans and nice weapons...:rotfl:

The US is just a nation like everyone else (ok, a tad bit larger), guided by self-interest and internal politics. If it is seen to be in the interest of the US government to be helpful, they will, if it is not, they won't. There is no benevolency here, otherwise the US wouldnt have become so powerful...

[dean_acheson]

Originally Posted by AntEater

The US is just a nation like everyone else (ok, a tad bit larger), guided by self-interest and internal politics. If it is seen to be in the interest of the US government to be helpful, they will, if it is not, they won't. There is no benevolency here, otherwise the US wouldnt have become so powerful...

Again, if this is your opinion, and shared my a majority of Germans, than I find it tragic.

The United States IS NOT just a nation like everyone else.

Please, pardon my confusion, but can you name me any other state in which, at its creation, a Constitution was drawn up, expressly stating that all power lies with its citizens, who agree that the government will have certain responsabilites and duties, and that plan for government was then sent to the citizens of a then non-existent United States, through a ratification process, at which point though majoritarian rule, was such a government established. A government based on the idea that power should be decentralized thorough checks and balances so as to forestall a King or Dictatorship?

Does your country have anyone even comparable to a George Washington? Someone who could have grabbed the reins of power and did not, as well as clearly establishing the supremacy of the civilian government over the military? Did your country ever fight a very bloody civil war, which to a large extent revolved around letting those that were the most powerless be given the civil rights of the rest of society?

Please, if I'm mistaken on this, I'm sure that you will correct me.

I love my country very very much. In fact, I think it is the greatest country in the world. Not only because it is the land of opportunity, and because it is a country that changes itself anew every day, but because it is a place where it is considered in good taste to create a "Marshall Plan" or to help rebuild a Japan. I love the traditions the United States is based on; life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness, and the fact that we are a country that does give a damn what other people have to say. In fact, policy makers here, as well as the public at large spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about what other countries and people think, for God's sake, does any other country, with the possible exception of Isreal, catch as much vitriol at the United States at the UN?

I agree with much, and disagree with much that happens in our country, and in the way that our country is presented to the world, and some of the actions that our goverment takes in the world (the war in Iraq is not one of them), but I would never agree that the United States is a country 'just like any other.' Such an exercise nhilistic realitivacy (sp) is not only depressing, it is wrong.

[dean_acheson]

[quote=AntEater] The only thing the US has done sofar was trying to start the cold war again and generally using every opportunity to sabotage the EU by their east european proxies like Poland.
The US doesnt need Europe right now and has no interest here except eliminating a potential rival. That is fine and the US as a superpower in decline has every right to do so, but we should not be so stupid as to help them.
[quote]

I'm very sorry if this is your opinion, or if it is shared by a majority in old Europe. If so, it is a very bad omen for co-operation between the republican west and the remaining dictatorships of the world.

If Europe thinks that we in the States, or the folks at the State Department, or rock-ribbed conservative Republican jingoists like myself consider the fracture of the EU as a good thing, then you are sadly mistaken.

Folks like myself don't always agree with everything that the EU does, or symbolizes, but you will find that we spend a hell of a lot less time critizing the EU than Europe does in criticizing the United States.

A unified, liberal, republican EU is in the interest of the United States, every serious policymaker in the United States from Harry Truman and Dean Acheson to the present day would agree with that. However, some of my ilk are not as supportive of a superstate run by beaucrats interested in aggrandizing their own power outside of a representative elective process.

I find, calling Poland a 'east european proxy' highly offensive. Here is a country that has spent centuries fighting and dying to be independent, and subject to the high power politics of neighbors that today claim to act at such a higher moral standard than the United States. I hope that all the Poles that died fighting for the allied powers in World War II for a free Poland, only to have their country forced into submission by the evil tyranny of the Soviet Union are somehow cursing such a sentiment.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by dean_acheson

I'm very sorry if this is your opinion, or if it is shared by a majority in old Europe. If so, it is a very bad omen for co-operation between the republican west and the remaining dictatorships of the world.

Do you remember the rumsfeld agitation concenring the old europe versus the new Europe? :hmm: Well, Rumsfeld may be gone, and the policy which led to such nasty smearings - and worse - in 2003 maybe was not representative for the 40 years of history before, but it has left it'S marks in Europe. Maybe forgiven. But certainly not forgotten.

If Europe thinks that we in the States, or the folks at the State Department, or rock-ribbed conservative Republican jingoists like myself consider the fracture of the EU as a good thing, then you are sadly mistaken.

I always made a strict differerence between what America should be by the ideals, described in it's constitution for example, or what americans dream it should be (an utopia, which may not be real but nevertheless in itself is a positive vision), and what the US is in a "realpolitischem Verständnis" (in a realistic understanding, politically). And also take note please that I also differ between talking about Americans (individual persons), and America as a political actor and abstract entity. By the ideals I could become American immediately, and always have been . By reality, I feel urged to be extremely careful with regard to the US. and when I talk of "America", I almost never mean the indiovidual people, but the political body that this nation is. And I agree with Nietzsche when he said that nations are the coldest of all monsters. America, Germany, and all others alike. Nations are abstract, lifeless systems, only the people inside of them do live. Living people can makie friendship. Nations never are friends, never.

This as a preface, so that you hopefiully do not blow up when I say that america has an intesrt in a united europe only if that Europe is a vasall, a deputy to the global visions of America. Europe is also an economical rival, and a very strong one, with quite some potential threats in the aresenal, amongst which the often laughed-about Euro is one of the biggest. If Asian economies, nations and finances ever start to replace their dollar reserves with euro (and signals are strong that China for example is strongly in love with that idea), this would deliver a devastating blow to the American economy. This as just one example. The times of the close alliance are over, they are gone and will not return. In the future, America and Europe are rivals for the most, and depending on the cultural changes that are to be expected for Europe, the old world even could be regarded as an enemy by america, one day in the future, maybe. So, the best recipe indeed is that oold motto: divide et impera. If europe is no more an obedient vasall, try to stir unrest amongst them, so that thex do not unite, being an even stronge rrival on the global strategical as well as economical scene. It's a pity that it is like that, but unfortunately all american governbment that I have seen so far tend to see america not as an equal amongst euals, but as the leader whose example others must follow, and that is on a mission to impose it's own system onto others as well. and ironically this mission is what has made america more and more enemies. America is just one poessebility of people forming up a system of state and nation amongst others. you like it, that is okay. But others have no obligation to follow your example.

Folks like myself don't always agree with everything that the EU does, or symbolizes, but you will find that we spend a hell of a lot less time critizing the EU than Europe does in criticizing the United States.

Look at this topic and the linked essay:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113045

europe is not as much covered in american medias than America gets coverage in European medias. But where america is covered in european medias (so says the essay, but I agree with it when patrolling some online editions of amerian newspapers myself), reports feature sometimes critical views on america, but soemtime salso focussing on the psoitive sides of it. But american medias are more certred in america alone and do not care so much for other nations (as long as one is not at war with them), and europe. Where their is coverage of europe - so says the article, but I happen to agree - it has a focus on Europe not complying with american views of the world, not being supportive for military efforts, making mockery of the EU and the euro and the UN and in this bias is a bit one-sided and always looking at bad things, while I must say that the wider and more numerous coverage of european medias concerning america may produce the critical view of America as well as well-meaning and friendly reports as well. All in all I like the european media covergae far better than the american one, which is limited, and narrow in scope.

A unified, liberal, republican EU is in the interest of the United States, every serious policymaker in the United States from Harry Truman and Dean Acheson to the present day would agree with that. However, some of my ilk are not as supportive of a superstate run by beaucrats interested in aggrandizing their own power outside of a representative elective process.

In other words a Europe that is flfilling certai9n key criterias of American defintion of ho9w a state should be run: for example, liberal, and republican. Well, the history of America may depend on that of weurope, but since the founding of America it went a very difefrent way. You were confronted with sometimes the same challenges liek europe, but thse challenges nevertheless had different qualities. For example I sometimes hear americans wondering why europe does no come along with it's immigration, when America is doing so well with it. Well, we have a totally different kind of immigration. Your problems are immigrants that nevertheless are close to your religious-cultural background and by that do not really put your constitutional order at risk. We need to deal with an Islamic immigration that in principle is totally different and is a threat to our constitutional state structures. Your ways thus cannot be ours, necessarily. Just an example.

I find, calling Poland a 'east european proxy' highly offensive. Here is a country that has spent centuries fighting and dying to be independent, and subject to the high power politics of neighbors that today claim to act at such a higher moral standard than the United States. I hope that all the Poles that died fighting for the allied powers in World War II for a free Poland, only to have their country forced into submission by the evil tyranny of the Soviet Union are somehow cursing such a sentiment.

The strange twin power at Poland's top has given especially Germany repeated reasons to be irritated and feel offended by sometime ultra-nationalistic broadsides fired, so that even Polsih people living in Germany sometimes feel like being given a start. Americans traditionally are seen by Polish people as Supermen, and I mean that literally, it is an utopia, a vision they are looking forward to. you can find a nice atmospheric description of this general attitude in Herman Wouk's famous trilogy about WWII. That after Poland's start in the EU and NATO they calculated to get some advantages when being the obedient vasall of Bush'S foreign policies maybe is doubted in America, but noone seriously doubts that in europe. and I even cannot blame the Polish for it. However, I just think it is a miscalculation. Like Britain did. Spain did. Italy did. Instead of gaining the huge contracts, more or less they got stuck in Iraq and have nothing but investements, but no wins.