[WIP] Dud Torpedoes Hardcore - testers needed

[Camaero]

After all of that is taken care of, we need the ship sinkings to be worked on. If I just plugged a merchant with two fishes in the bow and his props are out of the water, he should not be chugging along at 3 or 4 knots! Also, I feel like if I don't see the ship sink 15 seconds after I hit it, then its not going to. Very rarely have I had a ship sink after waiting, even if the thing is half submerged.

It's a few things that will take some work, but we will get this sim there thanks to you modders.

[Jungman]

To add, read alot of those articles, the deep running was fixed around the end of 1942 for Mark 14, early 1942 for the Mark 10.

Impact at 90 degree hits fixed around June 1943 for the fast moving Mark 14 (Mark 10 never suffered from thsi due to its slower speed).

They completely got rid of magnetic influence detenation (equator the Earth's field is too weak caused alot of premature explosions on the way to hit ship, or dud while passing under ship failing to go off).

The magnetic influence exploder was unquestionably responsible for sinking some, perhaps even a large fraction, of the 1.4 million gross registry tons of Japanese merchant ships sunk by submarines between December 1941 and August 1943. Reports from submarine commanding officers of apparent magnetic influence exploder failure, mainly duds and prematures, finally led to CinCPac ordering the disabling of the magnetic influence feature on 24 June 1943. ComSubSoWesPac reluctantly followed suit in December 194313. CinCPac's order was issued eighteen months after Jacobs, on Sargo's first war patrol, ordered the deactivation of the magnetic influence portion of the Mk.6 exploders in his torpedoes and incidentally got into considerable difficulty for doing so. Magnetic influence exploders were not used by US Navy submarines through the balance of WW II.

[Jungman]

Since the AI does not understand the Electric torpedo with no wake, and the Mark 23 is basically a Fast only Mark 14 introduced later in the war -they are redundent.

I would like to get rid of them and use them for different time dates and models for the Mark 14 only.

The Fast speed of the Mark 14 caused the firing pin failure. If you shot it at the slow speed of 31 knots it did not suffer the high speed impact problem as much either. Though it weight was more than a Mark 10 with more momentum. Most subs were firing them at high speed; in reality a slow speed setting, at a lower 45 degree angle, with a shallow depth set, Contact Only, probably would have worked great. Which would have been counter-intuitive to what they were taught was a good firing solution!

I would like to use these other useless ingame models (mark 23 and 18 electric) to show the improvement in the Mark 14 more, late 1942 for depth running fixed, mid 1943 for FAST speed contact pin failure fixed. Complete non-use of magnetic detenation after 1943.

If a person really wanted the Mark 18 to be in there, then since ASFAIK the AI does not 'see' the wakeless torpedo as a human would; improve its hit rate to make it simulate it better performance (not being seen -the game does not model this?).

[joea]

Originally Posted by Jungman

Since the AI does not understand the Electric torpedo with no wake, and the Mark 23 is basically a Fast only Mark 14 introduced later in the war -they are redundent.

You sure about that? I don't have SH4 but in SH3 my experience is that the AI does react to steam torps but not to electric ones. Since SH4 was built on the same engine (grumble grumble metric - imperial mess up...mutter mutter sub radar useless) it ought to be the same no?

[Egan]

Great stuff - I'm already bored with my almost perfect torpedoes.

[Galanti]

Great stuff, CCIP, I'll give it a try as well. Over the weekend I fired 12 torpedoes for 12 perfect detonations from old S-35. I'd like to see a bit less reliability in the mk 10, granted it was waay sturdier than the 14.

One of the interesting things I've noticed in Silent Victory is that early war skippers fired, in many cases, far more fish than the size of the targets would warrant according to the Fleet Sub manual chart. And in spite of incurring the wrath of Fife, Christie and Wilkes, who were ever mindful of the torpedo shortage. I'd like to forced to make the same hard decision - do I fire four at this 2000 freighter, knowing full well that I'm likely only to get 1 or 2 two fish?

While we're on that, can we somehow model in the torpedo shortage? I've noticed there is a finite supply from base to base. However, this supply seems to flucuate between loading saved games.

Now that I have the shells tweak file, I'm going to get around to nerfing the deck guns a bit too. They seem way too powerful as is.

[AntEater]

Just made a test patrol and the dissappointing results did not dissappoint me

USS Seawolf (normally I give my boat fictional names, but this time not) around May 1942.
Attacked a anchored tast force in the rain somewhere near Celebes (another thing that needs to be removed), fired around 8 torpedoes over open sights at close range for two hits on a destroyer and a Mogami CA, both impact hits for damage.
Fired another four at a large single freighter at 600 yards, 1 dud, one deep runner, one veered off for about 20 deg and one hit and blew up the freigher (freighter DM needs change as well).
Then ran into a convoy, fired my last eight torpedoes at two seperate targets.
Bow salvo at a medium freighter at around 700 yards:
One very close premature about 10-20 yards from the target. One running off course, one dud, one deep runner.
Stern salvo at 3 overlapping small freighters at 1000 yards:
one premature, 3 deep runners, one of which prematured in the wake of a freighter at the far side of the convoy.


Good Work!:hmm:

[Beery]

Very interested in where this thread is going.

One thing to be aware of is that the game models some duds in a rather weird way: some torpedoes will impact a ship and they'll appear to explode, but they have no effect on the enemy ship at all. You can only see the non-effect of these torpedoes if you have the full 3D damage graphics checked in the graphics options - they leave no hole in the ship's hull.

Because of the above many players are complaining of torpedoes that explode but do no damage. I think these were intended to be 'contact duds' but the devs forgot to remove the explosion graphics and the sound.

[Jungman]

Originally Posted by Beery

Very interested in where this thread is going.

One thing to be aware of is that the game models some duds in a rather weird way: some torpedoes will impact a ship and they'll appear to explode, but they have no effect on the enemy ship at all. You can only see the non-effect of these torpedoes if you have the full 3D damage graphics checked in the graphics options - they leave no hole in the ship's hull.

Because of the above many players are complaining of torpedoes that explode but do no damage. I think these were intended to be 'contact duds' but the devs forgot to remove the explosion graphics and the sound.

I have seen those and you are correct. They are actually coming from the Magnetic Dud Explosion range. It is set for only 1.5 meters stock. So they explode but with no explosive range to do any damage. They simulate Magnetic Exploder duds on the hull according to the sim file. If they did not hit the hull, they would have exploded like a premature explosion anyway, except these actually hit the hull first before PE.

The game seems to default back to Magnetic via a buggy switch as above posts.

[angelherrera2]

YES, thanks

[Jungman]

Originally Posted by joea

You sure about that? I don't have SH4 but in SH3 my experience is that the AI does react to steam torps but not to electric ones. Since SH4 was built on the same engine (grumble grumble metric - imperial mess up...mutter mutter sub radar useless) it ought to be the same no?

Yes. In SH3 the AI seemed to react to steam torps, but only the fast light weight DD could turn fast enough to avoid one.

I really have not seen this in SH4 a DD avoiding the steam torp. Maybe that is because the crew rating for the DD need to upped higher in rank to Veteran. The old steam torp would give away your position.

Testing these Mark 14 fast and slow, I almost want to say they use the Mark 23 torp data model in place of the Mark 14 when you select FAST. The regular Mark 14 at slow speed uses the other normal data. Try setting the Mark 23 to a perfect torpedo then watch the Mark 14 failure rate comparison FAST/SLOW. Does one vary from the other?

The depth running problem seems to accur after 1943 for the stock file. IRL the depth running was fixed in late 1942 before the Firing pin problem in mid 1943.

I need to test more. Maybe the tweak file did not get it.

[Bilge_Rat]

great work CCIP, I was hoping someone would get around to this. I will test out and give feedback.

[Donner]

@Jungman...

Check your PMs for info regarding Japanese Convoy History!

[Jungman]

Originally Posted by Camaero

After all of that is taken care of, we need the ship sinkings to be worked on. If I just plugged a merchant with two fishes in the bow and his props are out of the water, he should not be chugging along at 3 or 4 knots! Also, I feel like if I don't see the ship sink 15 seconds after I hit it, then its not going to. Very rarely have I had a ship sink after waiting, even if the thing is half submerged.

It's a few things that will take some work, but we will get this sim there thanks to you modders.

I think this is caused by the water drag coeffecient is too light for ships and maybe your own submarine. It tends to 'coast' along by its own mometum. Going quite a ways before stopping. It need to be tweaked up for more drag.

Just looking at how they fixed the fast torpedo bug due to 'drag'.

The Realistic Sinking is not implemeted, again. See SH3 NYGM Mod for a fix maybe for longer sinking times. Oh, lets get rid of that instant 'Ship Destoyed' Message -takes the joy out of it like a person blabbing the end of a movie in a theatre just before you see it.