[TEC]"Hidden" damage and loss of buoyancy.

[akdavis]

Yes, I meant to say damage to both trim AND ballast tanks. Edited above for clarity. Also, I need to reemphasize that (at least in my case), NO hull damage was reported. I had assumed that the "hull damaged" reports referred to the pressure hull. It would be very interesting to hear if anyone has experienced uncontrolled sinking on an even keel with no hull damaged reports or bulkhead damage/flooding in the DC screen. That would suggest that both fore and aft bouyancy was compromised at the same time. So far I've only experienced and seen reported loss of buoyancy aft, suggesting that rear ballast/trim tanks were destroyed.

The behavior I have observed and seen reported would seem to suggest there is a simple division into fore and aft trim/ballast tanks, if that is the actual cause. No one has reported rolling to the port or starboard, so I wouldn't think damage to either side is tracked separately.

[Jungman]

My observation on damaged hulls is that there is NO inclination to sink at all until the hull implodes. A mere 1.5 kts can easily keep a damaged hull at requested depth. The key here though is that the damage I looked at is simply hull damage inflicted by pressure.

Every time I have heard of heavy boat, clear board syndrome it has been related to damage inflicted by the enemy, apparently repaired. This also shows up in save files as simply a pecentage of hull damage, but unlike the pressure caused damage, surfacing does not reset anything, and the boat is heavy. I have experienced this on both ends.

OK. The damage I took was pure Attack damage. You are looking at Pressure Depth damage only. Thanks for clearing that up for me. It does indeed (attack damage) causes my sub to be heavy even though everthing is fixed, permanently. As you said.

Another thing - granted I could have edited to add it - but anyway. There has to be a bouyancy/flotabilty variable somewhere - because when a room floods it has an effect. If we can find where these variables are - they should be the key to changing the model as we want.

I cant find anything in the UPC file that jumps out at me - but they changed the sim files for each sub - could it be in there? Also - some changes to zones.cfg may hold a hint. My thought is its in the sim files somewhere.

I thought someone stated it seems to be as of patch 1.1 related to the Attack and Observation periscope comparment floatability stuff Zone.cfg?? Now I think they added back in more stuff in patch 1.2. Good question.

[Kataki]

In my case I was struck by a Depth charge in the rear and some how survived. I was kind of disapointed at the game when I recieved no dmg reports initially, but after managing to evade the DDs I had to blow ballast when I found myself rapidly sinking to 400 + feet. Amazingly I survied and managed to hit flank speed and speed away before the DDs watch noticed me.

Heres the Depth charge hit >
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/308/dcik7.jpg

Heres what happened when I was testing my ability to dive again. Notice my props arent moving when my electrics should be kicking in. This may be due to dmg to my electrics or maybe the engines cut after a certain degree change>
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3946/pdnj2.jpg

After that test I fell to over 200 feet before managing to become neutral and then ascend.

Going to make the return journey interesting to say the least..


BTW I am still playing on 1.1 due to having lots of mods and not using the mod install tool.. and being lazy

[gdavison]

I have this as well .. I took some attack damage which was "repaired" .. However The AA gun is still shown as damaged - however no amount of work seems to fix it and its still functional ..

As soon as I go to Periscope Depth, I have no Electric engines and I go into a tail slide into the depths .. If I am lucky an emergency surface can get me back up ..

Looking in the ActiveUserPlayerUnits.upc in the last save folder ... I see the sub has overall damage

[UserPlayerUnit 1]
Damage=0.295552

and also numerous examples of Damage being zero and there being remaining repair time .. which does not seem correct ??? Or does it ???

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 1.WeaponSlot 3.Weapon]
ID=DecoyLaunchTube
Damage=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000--88--70 23:57:33

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2]
ID=PorpoiseEnginesRoom
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000-00-00 00:12:15


[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 1.Equipment]
ID=Bulkhead
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000--88--70 23:59:41

[SirHendrik]

For those, who are capable of the german language, this problem is currently addressed here http://forums-de.ubi.com/eve/forums/...3581002255/p/1

Current state:
The sub has two types of damage:
Static Damage and Dynmaic Damage. Dynamic Damage is displayed within the game and can be repaired. Static damage doesn't show up. You have a stataic damage for the whole sub as mentioned a few posts above - and you have a static damage for every part of your sub, including persons.
This damage show up as DamageHitpointsConsumed in the savegame.

Currently we are writing on a "external" tool, to display the static damage of a sub from a savegame.

[CaptainHaplo]

SirHendrik - bloody brilliant mate- thanks for giving us a headsup!

OK - I think maybe I have a clue here. Granted - it depends on what your aiming a mod to do - but since we have 2 different damage models here - one hull and one internal - I think I see how to change things. This is all conjecture though I will be trying it when I finish writing if time allows. Since in the UPC file of each sub there is a list of the compartments with a HP value for each - usually 200 - but not a HP value for each piece of equipment - it looks like damage in a compartment is applied on a curve or sliding scale. The bulkhead getting the brunt (simulating hull damage causing leaks) with the rest being applied semirandomly to the rest of the "equipment" in the room. If that is the case - then if you want to reduce the "static" or external and unrepairable damage without changing how the internal model works - you would just adjust the Hp for the entire sub. Since this would - apparently - only affect the crush depth and pressure damage coefficients - they could be tweaked to still give realisitic results.
On the flip side - if you wanted to modify the dynamic or internal damage - you would change the COMPARTMENT HP value without changing the overall sub strength.

Basically - it boils down to 2 models and a different set of variables controlling each. Hopefully changing whichever set involved will allow the results one wants.

In SH3 a compartment destroyed was equal to a destroyed sub. With the dual damage model - you can in theory lose 2 compartments ON THE surface and still have a chance at survival - but if you loose ONE submerged you are also losing 1/3 of your total hull/ bouyancy strength - putting you REALLY close to going down no matter what - since at a loss of 50% you death spiral. And since you can "repair" the room - but not the associated hull damage - we see why "healthy" subs still have severe angles and control problems. In reality - this could also explain the "BUG" some people saw early when they would get damaged - fix things - and then dive without an ability to recover - if the damage sustained and then repaired was over half the hp value of the sub.

In the end = this is going to take some work balancing the internal compartment HP values, the "whole sub" values, the pressure/damage variables, as well as the damage amounts for all the weapons in the game to get things where you may want it. Unless someone can find, or one of the devs can point us to, a variable that affects how damage carries over from external to internal. Right now - it looks to have a 1:1 ratio or higher (internal damage equal to or higher than what is applied externally). That would be a godsend if we could play with it. But I doubt thats something we could get to.

On a side note - it was earlier posted that someone thought they knew where the "Armor" variable that is actually used went (as the ones in zones seems not to be used any longer) - anyone want to share????

Note - in case you havent noticed - I ramble when I brainstorm

Good Hunting
Captain Haplo

[U-Bones]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

On a side note - it was earlier posted that someone thought they knew where the "Armor" variable that is actually used went (as the ones in zones seems not to be used any longer) - anyone want to share????

I mentioned this when I was looking at Crash depth and crash speed and how they interacted with hull damage. I promptly proved myself mistaken after making that comment. I thought Armor had been split up among these UPC fields
CrewExposure=0.3
EquipmentsExposure=0.1
WeaponsExposure=0.1
Playing around with these did not produce the behavior I expected and I gave up on that angle. At the end of the day , I have no interest in making the sub tougher anyway - I just want damage control to work sanely without having to buff the sub.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by gdavison

I have this as well .. I took some attack damage which was "repaired" .. However The AA gun is still shown as damaged - however no amount of work seems to fix it and its still functional ..

As soon as I go to Periscope Depth, I have no Electric engines and I go into a tail slide into the depths .. If I am lucky an emergency surface can get me back up ..

Looking in the ActiveUserPlayerUnits.upc in the last save folder ... I see the sub has overall damage

[UserPlayerUnit 1]
Damage=0.295552

and also numerous examples of Damage being zero and there being remaining repair time .. which does not seem correct ??? Or does it ???

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 1.WeaponSlot 3.Weapon]
ID=DecoyLaunchTube
Damage=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000--88--70 23:57:33

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2]
ID=PorpoiseEnginesRoom
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000-00-00 00:12:15


[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 1.Equipment]
ID=Bulkhead
Damage=0.000000
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
RemainingRepairTime=0000--88--70 23:59:41

Mate - there are some bugs still in the damage handling - try changing the damage to 1.0 - or set the repair time to read all 0's - and see if your engines kick up and if your gun still shows damaged. If so - then we will have a workaround at least until this issue gets resolved.
Of course - make a backup of the original and try each fix seperately. If you would - let us know the results as well!
Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

[gdavison]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Mate - there are some bugs still in the damage handling - try changing the damage to 1.0 - or set the repair time to read all 0's - and see if your engines kick up and if your gun still shows damaged. If so - then we will have a workaround at least until this issue gets resolved.
Of course - make a backup of the original and try each fix seperately. If you would - let us know the results as well!
Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

edited the ActiveUserPlayerUnits.upc

Set all the sections so that
Damage=0.0000
And
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
And
RemainingRepairTime=0000-00-00 00:00:00
And
CriticalFlotation=1.000000
And
FloodingLevel=0.000000
And
FloodingTime=0000-00-00 00:00:00
And
FloodingSpeed=0.000000

And as we come out of black screen please wait I get we are taking damage . the guys in teh control room are still repairing stuff and if I go to periscope depth I tail slide into the depths again .. so there must be something in another file

I am running patch 1.1 .. so am going to upgrade to 1.2 and then delete profile and see what 1.2 gives

[U-Bones]

Originally Posted by gdavison

edited the ActiveUserPlayerUnits.upc

Set all the sections so that
Damage=0.0000
And
DamageHitpointsConsumed=0.000000
And
RemainingRepairTime=0000-00-00 00:00:00
And
CriticalFlotation=1.000000
And
FloodingLevel=0.000000
And
FloodingTime=0000-00-00 00:00:00
And
FloodingSpeed=0.000000

And as we come out of black screen please wait I get we are taking damage . the guys in teh control room are still repairing stuff and if I go to periscope depth I tail slide into the depths again .. so there must be something in another file

I am running patch 1.1 .. so am going to upgrade to 1.2 and then delete profile and see what 1.2 gives

CriticalFloatation is drived from Critic Floation in zones.cfg and is intended to be a fraction. Equipment that does not experience flooding has a range of values in zones.cfg, but in truth they are meaningless for everthing except the periscopes. In SH3 it was the percentage of compartment damage that would trigger flooding... dunno what is it now, flooding occurs on both sides of this number - but it appears only with compartments in the save file - not equipment.

Edit the Critic Floataion of both of your two periscopes in zones.cfg to a weird easy to spot value - .321123 for example. After that EVERY new boat save file will use that value for the criticalfloatation on EVERY compartment.

The default value for this is .300000, not 1.0
Again, no idea what this does anymore, but just for your testing info.

zones.cfg added sub compartments in 1.2. It is interesting that most of the apparent changes seem to be ignored as far as save files go, floatability is not trackable to the upc save file, and may be used, but the flooding speed changes are totally ignored. This is still set for every compartment from the periscopes values.