[TEC]"Hidden" damage and loss of buoyancy.

[U-Bones]

Originally Posted by Jungman

Is that the same as was discussed in the Crash Depth Thread? I had damage rather minor, it is fixed up. But even though it shows no damage anywhere, it still sinks. The only indication if it gets bad is interior sub has water leaks graphics with no sounds or flickering lights.

If I look at the savegame .upc file, it show my hull point damage at 0.437740. I understand at once that number hits above 0.50000 you go into an unstoppable sink death spiral if you dive. At just under that number I sank very heavy, only able to get back to surface by blowing ballast. I was permantely heavy. Plus if I went down too far, say around 100 feet, it was over, the compromised hull has a lower crush depth where damge starts again to the pressure hull.

Any damage to the equipment inside the sub even though repaired to 100%, seems to act like a heavy weight on the submarine. Still testing for patch 1.2 though -so not conclusive, but seems to act like you observe.

My observation on damaged hulls is that there is NO inclination to sink at all until the hull implodes. A mere 1.5 kts can easily keep a damaged hull at requested depth. The key here though is that the damage I looked at is simply hull damage inflicted by pressure.

Every time I have heard of heavy boat, clear board syndrome it has been related to damage inflicted by the enemy, apparently repaired. This also shows up in save files as simply a pecentage of hull damage, but unlike the pressure caused damage, surfacing does not reset anything, and the boat is heavy. I have experienced this on both ends.

So I am in agreement that there probably is something damaged in an attack that is not exposed to the damage board or save file that is causing this behavior. There are a LOT of undocumented spheres and boxes in the NSS_*.zon files...

[akdavis]

Well, I will state straight up that I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is damage to buoyancy systems outside the pressure hull, although everything considered, I think it more likely that the damage system is just fundamentally bugged/broken. Nonetheless, it is a theory that explains the observed behavior worth exploring.

[CaptainHaplo]

Its a plausible theory - but the issue of "trim" tank damage - if implemented as your suggesting - means they really didnt think it through. IRL - trim tanks are small compared to your MBT's - they'r useful for SMALL adjusments. If one was damaged/holed - a diving officer would simply compensate as much as possible with the appropriate fore or aft MBT - letting it be vented for a slightly shorter time.

If they did it the way your thinking - and I am not saying your wrong - then they made the trim tank important enough to sink you regardless of what the MBT state is. Unless - is this thing modelling MAIN BALLAST TANK Damage????

That would explain alot - since "HULL" damage is what we think of when we consider interior flooding or crush depth. But - as I noted in the Crash Speed thread - I think we should be looking at each "room" bulkhead as the "room" itself - as the bulkhead damage is what causes leaks - not true HULL damage.

We MAY be on to something here - but then if so - and I am not savvy enough to know - how is the "hull" damage location saved?

You got me thinking your right - suppose they are looking at hull damage not only lessening your overall crush depth, but also bouyancy. If so - then the .5 figure would be an indicater that your sub has a safety bouyancy factor (which in rl they do). Hull damage would decrease that - so once you get hull damage at 50% - then your doomed to sink no matter what - barring a blowing of all tanks. Very minor damage may have no effect on your ability to remain neutrally bouyant - but damage accumulated would reflect cracks/leaks in the trim and/or MBT tanks until they get to the .5 mark - where your get a death spiral....

If so - we may have been looking at a really unexplained "feature" that has been drastically misunderstood. However - I would still want to mod it to lessen its effects. Has anyone run across any variables that could be a bouyancy factor - if so - increasing this may allow the death spiral to be changed.

Thoughts?
Good Hunting
Captain Haplo.

[CaptainHaplo]

Another thing - granted I could have edited to add it - but anyway. There has to be a bouyancy/flotabilty variable somewhere - because when a room floods it has an effect. If we can find where these variables are - they should be the key to changing the model as we want.

I cant find anything in the UPC file that jumps out at me - but they changed the sim files for each sub - could it be in there? Also - some changes to zones.cfg may hold a hint. My thought is its in the sim files somewhere.

Good Hunting!
Captain Haplo

[akdavis]

Yes, I meant to say damage to both trim AND ballast tanks. Edited above for clarity. Also, I need to reemphasize that (at least in my case), NO hull damage was reported. I had assumed that the "hull damaged" reports referred to the pressure hull. It would be very interesting to hear if anyone has experienced uncontrolled sinking on an even keel with no hull damaged reports or bulkhead damage/flooding in the DC screen. That would suggest that both fore and aft bouyancy was compromised at the same time. So far I've only experienced and seen reported loss of buoyancy aft, suggesting that rear ballast/trim tanks were destroyed.

The behavior I have observed and seen reported would seem to suggest there is a simple division into fore and aft trim/ballast tanks, if that is the actual cause. No one has reported rolling to the port or starboard, so I wouldn't think damage to either side is tracked separately.

[Jungman]

My observation on damaged hulls is that there is NO inclination to sink at all until the hull implodes. A mere 1.5 kts can easily keep a damaged hull at requested depth. The key here though is that the damage I looked at is simply hull damage inflicted by pressure.

Every time I have heard of heavy boat, clear board syndrome it has been related to damage inflicted by the enemy, apparently repaired. This also shows up in save files as simply a pecentage of hull damage, but unlike the pressure caused damage, surfacing does not reset anything, and the boat is heavy. I have experienced this on both ends.

OK. The damage I took was pure Attack damage. You are looking at Pressure Depth damage only. Thanks for clearing that up for me. It does indeed (attack damage) causes my sub to be heavy even though everthing is fixed, permanently. As you said.

Another thing - granted I could have edited to add it - but anyway. There has to be a bouyancy/flotabilty variable somewhere - because when a room floods it has an effect. If we can find where these variables are - they should be the key to changing the model as we want.

I cant find anything in the UPC file that jumps out at me - but they changed the sim files for each sub - could it be in there? Also - some changes to zones.cfg may hold a hint. My thought is its in the sim files somewhere.

I thought someone stated it seems to be as of patch 1.1 related to the Attack and Observation periscope comparment floatability stuff Zone.cfg?? Now I think they added back in more stuff in patch 1.2. Good question.

[Kataki]

In my case I was struck by a Depth charge in the rear and some how survived. I was kind of disapointed at the game when I recieved no dmg reports initially, but after managing to evade the DDs I had to blow ballast when I found myself rapidly sinking to 400 + feet. Amazingly I survied and managed to hit flank speed and speed away before the DDs watch noticed me.

Heres the Depth charge hit >
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/308/dcik7.jpg

Heres what happened when I was testing my ability to dive again. Notice my props arent moving when my electrics should be kicking in. This may be due to dmg to my electrics or maybe the engines cut after a certain degree change>
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3946/pdnj2.jpg

After that test I fell to over 200 feet before managing to become neutral and then ascend.

Going to make the return journey interesting to say the least..


BTW I am still playing on 1.1 due to having lots of mods and not using the mod install tool.. and being lazy