Why no MMO?

XanderF · 04-02-07, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

LOL, thats just one. But ask yourself, do you really want to deal with a demanding, unforgiving audience in the context of an MMO? I won't go into the details, but .. man.... its brutal. I woudlnt touch that with a 200 ft pole. Spend any time on a major MMO messageboard (WoW for example), and you'll see how ugly it gets.

On top of that, while im no guru, i personally beleive the MMO market is saturated. Every tom, dick, and harry wants the game that keeps giving (15 bucks a month subscriber fee). Sub sims are too nich and audience, you'd have to dumb everything down for mass appeal, and then your into balancing the game to please everones sense of fair play and all other sorts of BS- and even then a Submarine MMO woudlnt make it. Too small an audience, too nich of a game, too big the competition. Ugly, ugly ugly.

Wait, what? Those arguments make no sense. The subscriber base for WoW is 6 MILLION. That's useless to us - they didn't make 6 million submarines combined among ALL countries in BOTH world wars. We do not need or want anything NEAR 'mass market'.

As to pricing - I dunno, the games are doing fine as it is. I mean, what's a greater number, $50 per copy for 100,000 copies of Sh4 bought once and played for free over the next 3 years...or $50 per copy, and then $15.00 a month for 3 years with only, say, 10,000 copies sold?

The MMO is already more profitable, even with those numbers. And that's presuming a title such as this only sells 1/10 as well as traditional Sh3/Sh4. Personally, I think the sale numbers would well be HIGHER than Sh3 or Sh4 on their own.

As to the argument about "ZOMG, FORUM FLAEMS!!1!ONE" I mean, really. Compare the WoW forums to the Sh3/Sh4 forums bug posts. They aren't THAT much worse, and that IS mass market...which we wouldn't expect or want.

Ducimus · 04-02-07, 02:11 PM

I had a flaming reubttle, but it just occured to me this topic isnt worth the time to write it, let alone the long flame war that would ensue after hitting the post button. In short, Your in love with your idea, but i feel I've played enough of those damn things (MMO's) to have an idea about what im talking about. Ive probably been playing them longer then you have. If your gonna dream, dream big i guess. Have fun daydreaming. Reality harkens in another direction however.

SteamWake · 04-02-07, 02:17 PM

I can see it now.

You can create your charecter and start out at level 1 with a canoe for a boat and a box full of rocks as weapons.

Go off and kill 20 seagulls to reach level 2 increase your "seamanship" attributes and you can paddle the canoe faster.

Now go off and kill 200 seagulls to reach level 3... at around level 10 you get your first "real" submarine type VII but can only carry one torpedo till you go out and sink 100 tugboatts and reach level 11.

Harmor · 04-02-07, 02:14 PM

Doesn't World War 2 Online have naval warfare too? I used to play infantry in that game (was a blast while it lasted) and could see a naval sim work as MMO if you'd let the players choose between, say, surface ships or submarines, perhaps even extending it to carriers and the planes based on them. Then again .. the market is probably not big enough to warrant a Naval sim MMO.

Ducimus · 04-02-07, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmor

Then again .. the market is probably not big enough to warrant a Naval sim MMO.

Ask yourself this:
How many FPS's do you see on gamestore shelves?
How many RPG's?
How many landbattle, WW2ish games in any form?
How many flight sims do you see?
And lastly,compared to all of the above,
How many naval and/or sub games do you see?

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

I can see it now.

You can create your charecter and start out at level 1 with a canoe for a boat and a box full of rocks as weapons.

Go off and kill 20 seagulls to reach level 2 increase your "seamanship" attributes and you can paddle the canoe faster.

Now go off and kill 200 seagulls to reach level 3... at around level 10 you get your first "real" submarine type VII but can only carry one torpedo till you go out and sink 100 tugboatts and reach level 11.

Halarious. Honestly, though it would be closer to planetside, but even then you had levels which dictated how many things you could do, could use, or could carry.

ParaB · 04-02-07, 03:08 PM

Wolves of the Pacific Online

A typical afternoon in the massively multiplayer submarine sim by UbiSoft:

General chat:< [DeAtHKill0R] how do u dive?

General chat:< [CaptainBoobie] LOLZ U N00b!!

General chat:< [DorkVader] press Ctrl-alt-del

General chat:< [JackBuar] ^^ lol!!!

General chat:< [Xfazycxasd] BYU CHEAP RENOWN AT WWW.RENOWNFARMERS.COM

General chat:< [SUB_PIRATE]: LFG Yamato, need one more Gato!!!!!!!

General chat:< [SUBCIPTAIN]: wrong channel dude

General chat:< [SUB_PIRATE]: yeah whateva...

Looking for Group:< [SUB_PIRATE] LFG Yamato, one more Gato needed!!!!!

Looking for Group: < [Capt. Smith] can I join? I got a Gato.

Looking for Group:< [SUB_PIRATE] are you SJ-radio specked?

Looking for Group:< [Capt. Smith] no, i bought a better deck gun

Looking for Group:< [SUB_PIRATE] dude, for teh hi-level raid content u GOT to put points into improved radar!!! nub.

General chat:< [Xfazycxasd] BYU CHEAP RENOWN AT WWW.RENOWNFARMERS.COM

[-=BiGWanG=-] send you a message:< NEED HELP!!!11

[ParaB] sends a message to [BigWangG]:< where are you, friend? I can't see you

[-=BiGWanG=-] sends you a message:< BAY OF TOKYO HELP ME NOW!!!1!

[ParaB] sends a message to [BigWangG]:< err...sorry. I'd really like to help you but I'm currently 50sm off Brisbane harbour.

[-=BiGWanG=-] sends you a message:< YOU SUCK!!!111

[-=BiGWanG=-] ignores you now

TheSatyr · 04-02-07, 03:18 PM

I think the main reason you'll never see it is because not enough people wouild play it to make it viable financially.

Unless you run it like Freelancer...in which case you'd be limited to around 12-24 people a server.

wetwarev7 · 04-02-07, 03:30 PM

I think MMOs are a good way to ruin great games.

Just my two cents

Ducimus · 04-02-07, 03:36 PM

ParaB has improved in "telling it like it is (100)!"

Solonor · 04-02-07, 03:42 PM

WW2 Online (Battleground Europe now) does have some unique stuff with it, but naval part is not very well done. Everything else is though, would encourage everyone to try it. I will reactivate it again when I have more time.

Anyway, the game "Navy Field" with SH4/5 graphics is what I am looking for.
A massively multiplayer online tactics simulation game based upon WW2 of course, with all 4 major factions involved. Start out with your Frigate and work your way to the big Battleships and Carriers. And of course special job's that a Destroyer has, torpedo boats maybe and submarines, light/heavy cruisers etc.

The game system that Navy Field has now doesn't really give you the "feel" of such a game though, and would have to see some changes.

But this type of game (which I tried to my best effort to describe here, maybe not easy to tell but :p), is what I am essentially looking for. I would subscribe even before it launched!

wetwarev7 · 04-02-07, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParaB

Wolves of the Pacific Online

A typical afternoon in the massively multiplayer submarine sim by UbiSoft:

General chat:< [Xfazycxasd] BYU CHEAP RENOWN AT WWW.RENOWNFARMERS.COM

[-=BiGWanG=-] send you a message:< NEED HELP!!!11

[ParaB] sends a message to [BigWangG]:< where are you, friend? I can't see you

[-=BiGWanG=-] send you a message:< BAY OF TOKYO HELP ME NOW!!!1!

[ParaB] sends a message to [BigWangG]:< err...sorry. I'd really like to help you but I'm currently 50sm off Brisbane harbour.

[-=BiGWanG=-] send you a message:< YOU SUCK!!!111

[-=BiGWanG=-] ignores you now

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

XanderF · 04-02-07, 04:29 PM

I'm not sure why everyone seems to think I'm suggesting "WoW with submarines".

It seems to be where this thread is getting derailed, and I never implied (or want) any such thing - I said so specifically in an earlier post.

All I'm looking for is Sh3/Sh4 with a more expansive multiplayer component - expansive enough to be considered 'massive'. No 'grinding', indeed no levelling at ALL (who said levelling was a requirement of an MMO? How did that even come UP in this conversation?)

Again, we are not talking about changing the foundation of the game to try and target a 6 million+ install base. Nobody wants that. The idea is to just take what is already IN Sh3/Sh4, and just add onto the multiplayer. Ideally, we'd hit 50% of the target audience that ALREADY BOUGHT Sh3/Sh4. No more than that is needed, as each individual copy of any MMO title sold represents many times greater profitability to a company that individual copies of single-player/offline games.

IE., in a cost-benefit analysis of MMOs vs 'offline' games, you don't need to sell MORE copies to make the MMO more profitable, as each copy has much higher value over time. You only need to sell a significant fraction of the number that you would have sold anyway. An MMO is a license to print money for most companies (monthly fees, from every subscriber, for EVERY MONTH they play). What WE get out of it is a much more massive game, interaction with thousands of people playing at the same time, and more active, continued development than the half dozen patches we can at most optimistically expect of SP games.

MikeJW · 04-02-07, 05:32 PM

No MMO because you'd lose more than half your sales. This is a series that appeals to SP people with a little MP thrown in for those who like it now and then. If MP was the main focus of SH4 I wouldnt have bought it because I hate MP.

SteamWake · 04-02-07, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParaB

Wolves of the Pacific Online

General chat:< [Xfazycxasd] BYU CHEAP RENOWN AT WWW.RENOWNFARMERS.COM

Beautiful ! Complete with stupid typos ! Hilarious....

Now let me get a mop and clean up the soda all over the place.

macky · 04-02-07, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParaB

Wolves of the Pacific Online

General chat:< [Xfazycxasd] BYU CHEAP RENOWN AT WWW.RENOWNFARMERS.COM

Beautiful ! Complete with stupid typos ! Hilarious....

Now let me get a mop and clean up the soda all over the place.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I do play wow, thats my curse in life. But I can imagine the reknown sellers now

No, I am not sure an SH3+4 mmo would work, in fact I am sure it wouldn't. Then again, I cant see how WW2 online would work, and it obviously does...I would be tempted I guess but I would need a free trial first:p

04-02-07, 02:14 PM	#4
Harmor Watch Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 27 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Doesn't World War 2 Online have naval warfare too? I used to play infantry in that game (was a blast while it lasted) and could see a naval sim work as MMO if you'd let the players choose between, say, surface ships or submarines, perhaps even extending it to carriers and the planes based on them. Then again .. the market is probably not big enough to warrant a Naval sim MMO. __________________ "Once the stone you're crawling under is lifted off your shoulders Once the cloud that's raining over your head disappears The noise that you'll hear is the crashing down of hollow years" Dream Theater - Hollow Years

04-02-07, 03:08 PM	#6
ParaB Chief Join Date: May 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 327 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	Wolves of the Pacific Online A typical afternoon in the massively multiplayer submarine sim by UbiSoft: General chat:< [DeAtHKill0R] how do u dive? General chat:< [CaptainBoobie] LOLZ U N00b!! General chat:< [DorkVader] press Ctrl-alt-del General chat:< [JackBuar] ^^ lol!!! General chat:< [Xfazycxasd] BYU CHEAP RENOWN AT WWW.RENOWNFARMERS.COM General chat:< [SUB_PIRATE]: LFG Yamato, need one more Gato!!!!!!! General chat:< [SUBCIPTAIN]: wrong channel dude General chat:< [SUB_PIRATE]: yeah whateva... Looking for Group:< [SUB_PIRATE] LFG Yamato, one more Gato needed!!!!! Looking for Group: < [Capt. Smith] can I join? I got a Gato. Looking for Group:< [SUB_PIRATE] are you SJ-radio specked? Looking for Group:< [Capt. Smith] no, i bought a better deck gun Looking for Group:< [SUB_PIRATE] dude, for teh hi-level raid content u GOT to put points into improved radar!!! nub. General chat:< [Xfazycxasd] BYU CHEAP RENOWN AT WWW.RENOWNFARMERS.COM [-=BiGWanG=-] send you a message:< NEED HELP!!!11 [ParaB] sends a message to [BigWangG]:< where are you, friend? I can't see you [-=BiGWanG=-] sends you a message:< BAY OF TOKYO HELP ME NOW!!!1! [ParaB] sends a message to [BigWangG]:< err...sorry. I'd really like to help you but I'm currently 50sm off Brisbane harbour. [-=BiGWanG=-] sends you a message:< YOU SUCK!!!111 [-=BiGWanG=-] ignores you now Last edited by ParaB; 04-02-07 at 03:44 PM.

04-02-07, 03:30 PM	#8
wetwarev7 Grey Wolf Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Deep Waters Posts: 871 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	I think MMOs are a good way to ruin great games. Just my two cents __________________ Guess I should change my sig since SH5 has an offline mode now

04-02-07, 04:29 PM	#12
XanderF Samurai Navy Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 554 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	I'm not sure why everyone seems to think I'm suggesting "WoW with submarines". It seems to be where this thread is getting derailed, and I never implied (or want) any such thing - I said so specifically in an earlier post. All I'm looking for is Sh3/Sh4 with a more expansive multiplayer component - expansive enough to be considered 'massive'. No 'grinding', indeed no levelling at ALL (who said levelling was a requirement of an MMO? How did that even come UP in this conversation?) Again, we are not talking about changing the foundation of the game to try and target a 6 million+ install base. Nobody wants that. The idea is to just take what is already IN Sh3/Sh4, and just add onto the multiplayer. Ideally, we'd hit 50% of the target audience that ALREADY BOUGHT Sh3/Sh4. No more than that is needed, as each individual copy of any MMO title sold represents many times greater profitability to a company that individual copies of single-player/offline games. IE., in a cost-benefit analysis of MMOs vs 'offline' games, you don't need to sell MORE copies to make the MMO more profitable, as each copy has much higher value over time. You only need to sell a significant fraction of the number that you would have sold anyway. An MMO is a license to print money for most companies (monthly fees, from every subscriber, for EVERY MONTH they play). What WE get out of it is a much more massive game, interaction with thousands of people playing at the same time, and more active, continued development than the half dozen patches we can at most optimistically expect of SP games. __________________

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04-02-07, 02:11 PM	#2
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I had a flaming reubttle, but it just occured to me this topic isnt worth the time to write it, let alone the long flame war that would ensue after hitting the post button. In short, Your in love with your idea, but i feel I've played enough of those damn things (MMO's) to have an idea about what im talking about. Ive probably been playing them longer then you have. If your gonna dream, dream big i guess. Have fun daydreaming. Reality harkens in another direction however.

04-02-07, 02:17 PM	#3
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I can see it now. You can create your charecter and start out at level 1 with a canoe for a boat and a box full of rocks as weapons. Go off and kill 20 seagulls to reach level 2 increase your "seamanship" attributes and you can paddle the canoe faster. Now go off and kill 200 seagulls to reach level 3... at around level 10 you get your first "real" submarine type VII but can only carry one torpedo till you go out and sink 100 tugboatts and reach level 11.

04-02-07, 03:18 PM	#7
TheSatyr Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 545 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think the main reason you'll never see it is because not enough people wouild play it to make it viable financially. Unless you run it like Freelancer...in which case you'd be limited to around 12-24 people a server.

04-02-07, 03:36 PM	#9
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	ParaB has improved in "telling it like it is (100)!"

04-02-07, 03:42 PM	#10
Solonor Swabbie Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 8 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	WW2 Online (Battleground Europe now) does have some unique stuff with it, but naval part is not very well done. Everything else is though, would encourage everyone to try it. I will reactivate it again when I have more time. Anyway, the game "Navy Field" with SH4/5 graphics is what I am looking for. A massively multiplayer online tactics simulation game based upon WW2 of course, with all 4 major factions involved. Start out with your Frigate and work your way to the big Battleships and Carriers. And of course special job's that a Destroyer has, torpedo boats maybe and submarines, light/heavy cruisers etc. The game system that Navy Field has now doesn't really give you the "feel" of such a game though, and would have to see some changes. But this type of game (which I tried to my best effort to describe here, maybe not easy to tell but :p), is what I am essentially looking for. I would subscribe even before it launched!

04-02-07, 05:32 PM	#13
MikeJW Helmsman Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 106 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	No MMO because you'd lose more than half your sales. This is a series that appeals to SP people with a little MP thrown in for those who like it now and then. If MP was the main focus of SH4 I wouldnt have bought it because I hate MP.