Convoy escorts...Be more agressive

Drifter9 · 03-26-07, 10:34 AM

I've noticed that the slow moving convoy/task force groups are usually the easy targets. You would think that a slow moving DD would be better set to detect a sub than a fast moving one but so far it doesn't seem to be the case(for me with one weekend worth of play). I sunk a heavy cruiser & a light cruiser at the head of a slow moving convoy without a trouble. However, I tried attacking a very similar group moving at a fast speed and the destroyers when crazy. I think the groups that move at one knot have some sort of bug.

gord96 · 03-26-07, 10:49 AM

same thing here. was on a patrol in the South China Seas last night when I attacked a convoy with 3 destoyers escorts. I pumped torpedo after torpedo into the tankers and all the destoyers did was shine their lights around. Even in SH3 vanilla the destroyers would go nuts and depth charge the crap out of you if you got near the convoy.

tater · 03-26-07, 11:40 AM

Look at the pluss side, in RL the Combined Fleet would never have tasked 3 real DDs to escort anything non-naval. Fleet oilers, yes, merchant tankers, no.

tater

Trout · 03-26-07, 12:47 PM

"realistic escorts" should be a difficulty option in this game. Passive escorts will certainly limit how much I play and enjoy the game.

Trout

Drifter9 · 03-26-07, 01:38 PM

Should the Japanese even have a convoy system in the early war? I understand its important to have warships around to make the game harder and more fun but I always thought that was one of the Japanese flaws, they didn't protect their baggage train. I like the idea of realistic escorts for an option I also agree that there shouldn't be heavy cruisers or a destroyer squadron escorting some merchant ships. I'd like to see an option for aggressive escorts and another option for smaller escort ships. I really think there should be a lot more sub chasers, corvettes, gun boats, and so on escorting smaller early war merchants. Also, barges were very common in supplying smaller Japanese outposts. Most of the interdiction of these would have been by PT boats but submarines did go gun to gun with them as well.
Its a great game but I think its a bit overboard when you have a Mugami heavy cruiser, two Kumas, and a squadron of the IJNs heaviest destroyers as your default escort group for a modest sized convoy in 1942.

Anachronous · 03-26-07, 01:42 PM

The more I play, the more I notice this. Most the esorts stop dead in the water allowing me to take a good shot before they decide to start hunting.

Drifter9 · 03-26-07, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anachronous

The more I play, the more I notice this. Most the esorts stop dead in the water allowing me to take a good shot before they decide to start hunting.

Right! And unless I'm piloting a Gato filled with 24 torps I'm more likely to spend three or four fish on the escorts while they sit and ponder their situation so I can waste the convoy with my deck gun.
Does anyone else notice that fast or medium moving ships are a lot more alert than the ones that creep around at one knot?

tater · 03-26-07, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drifter9

Should the Japanese even have a convoy system in the early war? I understand its important to have warships around to make the game harder and more fun but I always thought that was one of the Japanese flaws, they didn't protect their baggage train. I like the idea of realistic escorts for an option I also agree that there shouldn't be heavy cruisers or a destroyer squadron escorting some merchant ships. I'd like to see an option for aggressive escorts and another option for smaller escort ships. I really think there should be a lot more sub chasers, corvettes, gun boats, and so on escorting smaller early war merchants. Also, barges were very common in supplying smaller Japanese outposts. Most of the interdiction of these would have been by PT boats but submarines did go gun to gun with them as well.
Its a great game but I think its a bit overboard when you have a Mugami heavy cruiser, two Kumas, and a squadron of the IJNs heaviest destroyers as your default escort group for a modest sized convoy in 1942.

No, they really shouldn't. Also, why use the term "realistic escorts" (not slamming you, specifically) when "realisitc" might be what they are now, or even worse as a total system.

The IJN did not task what they considered valuable, offensive platforms (DDs) as routine escorts. Many did escort or ASW patrol duty, but not all that often. You can look at the TROMs at combinedfleet.com. I should go through and count the total DD-days escort/patrol duty for the war by year. I bet it doesn't add up to many DDs per merchant ship per day.

<EDIT> BTW, looks like the Minikaze Class was used much more often as an escort/ASW platform than the other DD types. Something to keep in mind.

tater

tater · 03-26-07, 03:56 PM

I'm going through the DD TROMs systematically. Some DDs did loads od escort/patrol duty (usually not remarked), but many times the specific ships escorted are listed, and where they went. Amazing how many are a DD escorting 1 or 2 ships. The first "big" (~10 ships) convoys were not until 1943. 10-20 ship convoys were only routine from '44 on. Would be cool to make a map by month or week showing IJN ASW patrols/escorts. Daunting task with 134 DDs and 32 DEs (Matsu class) to deal with.

Drifter9 · 03-26-07, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Also, why use the term "realistic escorts" (not slamming you, specifically) when "realisitc" might be what they are now, or even worse as a total system.

True, I was just going with a prior posts comment for that option. Realistic wasn't a great choice but you got the jist. Who can say what a real escort would have been other than a vet or a historian.
Of course, like I said, you have to add warships for the fun factor. I mean blowing up or even finding one or two random cargo clunkers doesn't appeal to the masses. To keep things off the shelf and on your hard drive there needs to be cruisers and carriers zipping about for you to throw torps at.
I think a good mod would put almost all of the warships in task forces or small surface action groups, string out the cargo ships to small groups (like sampans and junks are in SH4) and limit their escort accordingly, and add a lot more gunboats, armed supply barges and small ships in the coastal waterways. Also, some Q ship style merch's would be nice too.

partyboy · 03-26-07, 02:38 PM

Hm.. whenever I surface in front of anything I usually get harrassed pretty hard. Planes will strafe/bomb.. continue to bomb after I submerge. Destroyers open their guns on me and depth charge. If I shake an escort and attack ships a little further away, the escorts will come speeding back in my direction. They try to hunt me down with their sonar and will keep depth charging me.

The game defaults to 'easy,' I assume you're turning it up?

kakemann · 04-24-07, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trout

"realistic escorts" should be a difficulty option in this game. Passive escorts will certainly limit how much I play and enjoy the game.

Trout

I certainly agree!

SteamWake · 04-24-07, 08:04 PM

I just dont get it.

As soon as I loose the first salvo the escorts are on my ass like white on rice.

We playin the same game ?

kakemann · 04-24-07, 08:09 PM

Probably, but I think the escort AI varies.

Sometimes they are really agressive. Sometimes they just stop up and act passive. Sometimes they just keep crusing. Sometimes they actually atacks.

I've experienced all of these things.
But SH3 was far more challenging considering the DD's AI.

03-26-07, 01:42 PM	#6
Anachronous Medic Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tasmania Posts: 167 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	The more I play, the more I notice this. Most the esorts stop dead in the water allowing me to take a good shot before they decide to start hunting. __________________ Use of undefined constants causes assumptions!

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03-26-07, 10:34 AM	#1
Drifter9 Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 12 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I've noticed that the slow moving convoy/task force groups are usually the easy targets. You would think that a slow moving DD would be better set to detect a sub than a fast moving one but so far it doesn't seem to be the case(for me with one weekend worth of play). I sunk a heavy cruiser & a light cruiser at the head of a slow moving convoy without a trouble. However, I tried attacking a very similar group moving at a fast speed and the destroyers when crazy. I think the groups that move at one knot have some sort of bug.

03-26-07, 10:49 AM	#2
gord96 Commodore Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 627 Downloads: 57 Uploads: 0	same thing here. was on a patrol in the South China Seas last night when I attacked a convoy with 3 destoyers escorts. I pumped torpedo after torpedo into the tankers and all the destoyers did was shine their lights around. Even in SH3 vanilla the destroyers would go nuts and depth charge the crap out of you if you got near the convoy.

03-26-07, 11:40 AM	#3
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Look at the pluss side, in RL the Combined Fleet would never have tasked 3 real DDs to escort anything non-naval. Fleet oilers, yes, merchant tankers, no. tater

03-26-07, 12:47 PM	#4
Trout A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 76 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	"realistic escorts" should be a difficulty option in this game. Passive escorts will certainly limit how much I play and enjoy the game. Trout

03-26-07, 01:38 PM	#5
Drifter9 Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 12 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Should the Japanese even have a convoy system in the early war? I understand its important to have warships around to make the game harder and more fun but I always thought that was one of the Japanese flaws, they didn't protect their baggage train. I like the idea of realistic escorts for an option I also agree that there shouldn't be heavy cruisers or a destroyer squadron escorting some merchant ships. I'd like to see an option for aggressive escorts and another option for smaller escort ships. I really think there should be a lot more sub chasers, corvettes, gun boats, and so on escorting smaller early war merchants. Also, barges were very common in supplying smaller Japanese outposts. Most of the interdiction of these would have been by PT boats but submarines did go gun to gun with them as well. Its a great game but I think its a bit overboard when you have a Mugami heavy cruiser, two Kumas, and a squadron of the IJNs heaviest destroyers as your default escort group for a modest sized convoy in 1942.

03-26-07, 03:56 PM	#9
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I'm going through the DD TROMs systematically. Some DDs did loads od escort/patrol duty (usually not remarked), but many times the specific ships escorted are listed, and where they went. Amazing how many are a DD escorting 1 or 2 ships. The first "big" (~10 ships) convoys were not until 1943. 10-20 ship convoys were only routine from '44 on. Would be cool to make a map by month or week showing IJN ASW patrols/escorts. Daunting task with 134 DDs and 32 DEs (Matsu class) to deal with.

03-26-07, 02:38 PM	#11
partyboy Helmsman Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 106 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Hm.. whenever I surface in front of anything I usually get harrassed pretty hard. Planes will strafe/bomb.. continue to bomb after I submerge. Destroyers open their guns on me and depth charge. If I shake an escort and attack ships a little further away, the escorts will come speeding back in my direction. They try to hunt me down with their sonar and will keep depth charging me. The game defaults to 'easy,' I assume you're turning it up?

04-24-07, 08:04 PM	#13
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I just dont get it. As soon as I loose the first salvo the escorts are on my ass like white on rice. We playin the same game ?

04-24-07, 08:09 PM	#14
kakemann Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Pretty close to the big german cruiser Blücher in Norway Posts: 568 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Probably, but I think the escort AI varies. Sometimes they are really agressive. Sometimes they just stop up and act passive. Sometimes they just keep crusing. Sometimes they actually atacks. I've experienced all of these things. But SH3 was far more challenging considering the DD's AI.