night attacks on convoys

supposedtobeworking · 03-17-07, 06:02 PM

e hartmann that is very interesting, but I am still trying to imagine playing that out in my head and I don't see how you can hit five boats. Are you using GWX? I have to be honest, in my convoy attacks i get away with one ship sunk and another wounded tops. I've never gotten away hitting more than 2 ships. Do you use manual TDC? I use manual only--and usually I try to get within 1000m or less for the shot to gaurantee hits. I also cannot stand to make a hit and then wait hours and hours for the ship to go down -- esp. if I have to leave the area and then dont even get credit for the kill while I'm out of range. So I always make sure the target is going down on the first attack run. As for hitting multiples, I have not experimented with shots other than 90AOB since its the safest. Not to mention you have to take into consideration the gyro angle for accuracy, it must take a while to get the hang of your method i would think.

What does your target layout look like? I would imagine that you hit ships which are generally in front of you close to 90AOB just a varying distances in different columns? like this/

What is the maximum range you tend to fire on ships in the lanes and what is the max gyro angle and AOB you'll fire at?

Gildor · 03-17-07, 10:23 PM

A five shot approach can work. Here is how I do it:

Diagram (crude but works):

- The columns are about 700-800m apart.
- Evade lead escort and approach as shown, silent and slow
- Fire as shown, a electic3 moves about 900m a min so time as shown (aprox)
- Most times you get the hits all within 10-15 sec, or at least before any significant change in cousre for zig-zag when your first torp goes boom.
- immediately after firing the last stern shot, turn into column and dive at half ahead(4knots). Once a torp hits, use Captains discretion to escape but because you are under column the escorts will have to evade, giving you time to get deep.

I will prob add more as I remember, (it's late)

This works most of the time. It takes patience, timing and b*lls of steel.

-

supposedtobeworking · 03-17-07, 11:58 PM

LOL! ha thats great--thanks for the diagram.. couple questions:

--what speed settings do you set your torpedoes to? I did read something about electric so you can only set those to slow right?

--when you say to fire >10 sec that means after 10 secs right? I assume you mean fire at about ten secs but not before...

--doesnt the gyro angle on the left most target off of your port bow read a little high? do you usually get a hit? are you using manual TDC for this??

finally, I assume that these just wound the ships as mentioned before, so you have to go back and finish em off right? dont tell me you get critical hits every time!!

thanks for the advice...like i said I just fire off all fish at the target in front of me--I hate waiting for them to go down, so I finish em off right then and there, but I only get away with one or two sinkings per attack

as far as timing goes--how the hell do you keep your scope from getting knocked off by the time the merchant ship runs over you after you've fired your shots--how do you time this--by guesstimating or do you make calculations? thx agin

GoldenRivet · 03-18-07, 12:23 AM

I have been inside the lanes before, even with escorts about...but getting there wasnt easy.

I was on the surface at about 1 knot speed low in the water with just the watch tower exposed and it was a dark moonless night. i lined up a shot on 4 of the largest ships i could find close to me with the bow tubes and let loose and crash dove down to about 150 meters and snuck away. all the shots hit their targets but nothing sunk... shadowed the convoy until the next evening when i did the exact same thing on the ships that showed signs of damage.

walked away with 2 large tankers and 2 pyro ammunition ships and 1 tramp steamer i hit with a stern shot on the second night.

it was 1942... fired them off and went deep and silent, never heard a single ping, and i dont think anyone really ever knew i was inside the lanes!

supposedtobeworking · 03-18-07, 01:13 AM

wow thats rediculous--do you use manual TDC??! I can't imagine getting in that position two times in a row and taking out the same ships...yer my hero..

Gildor · 03-18-07, 09:28 AM

The diagram is not to scale so it looks a bit off.

I use weapon officer assist because I beleive the Captain would not do Everything(tm)

When it says "> 10 sec" it is as you guessed. dont fire before 10 sec, etc.

I'm not saying this works everytime, but it has good results for me most of the time. I usually have, I would guess, 96 percent accuracy. The urge to fire and get the heck out of there is very high. Thats why I said be patient. They dont know you are there until either the first torp hits or your periscope is spotted.

Timing the shots as i do, means they all hit within 10 - 15 sec of each other, but sometime it might be off.

From what I recall, the torps move at 30knots max 5kms (t3 electric). I figure they move at about 850-900m a min aprox.

Important: Most of the time if you aim for the first third of a ship, they will sink with one shot. It takes a while but they do sink. Dont get me wrong, some do make an escape but i can chase them down later if i am so inclined. Aim for the first mast.

Gildor · 03-18-07, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supposedtobeworking

LOL! ha thats great--thanks for the diagram.. couple questions:

--what speed settings do you set your torpedoes to? I did read something about electric so you can only set those to slow right?

--when you say to fire >10 sec that means after 10 secs right? I assume you mean fire at about ten secs but not before...

--doesnt the gyro angle on the left most target off of your port bow read a little high? do you usually get a hit? are you using manual TDC for this??

finally, I assume that these just wound the ships as mentioned before, so you have to go back and finish em off right? dont tell me you get critical hits every time!!

thanks for the advice...like i said I just fire off all fish at the target in front of me--I hate waiting for them to go down, so I finish em off right then and there, but I only get away with one or two sinkings per attack

as far as timing goes--how the hell do you keep your scope from getting knocked off by the time the merchant ship runs over you after you've fired your shots--how do you time this--by guesstimating or do you make calculations? thx agin

The gyro angel for shot 4 is high and if i do get a miss it is usually that target.

Timing. This is what makes a Captain an artist.

Find a convoy, determine the course and speed, spend days getting in front. I have had convoys suddenly change direction zig-zagging away, only to make me repeat approach. Sneak into position at silent and slow, sometimes getting within 1000m of lead DD. Turn towards targets, keeping an eye on the column barrelling down on you. All this done with periscope checks - not raised more than 30 sec at a time.

Get ready to fire at target 2, raise scope a bit, opene tube while raising. Line up on aprox target bearing, raise to surface, aim, shoot. swing to target 1, aim shoot. lower scope.

Wait 55 sec. Repeat for next two. Swing around for stern shot.

As soon as you fire, turn opposite course to targets and dive to 100. usually im still 300m or so from the column (close) thats barreling down on me.

Hear explosions. Manuver to escape. After you get away you should be on a course to follow them and pick of any wounded as needed.

Zero Niner · 03-18-07, 08:00 PM

I think it's a matter of both skill and luck. Skill of course is to remain undetected, but luck plays an enormous part, by being at the right place at the right time with the right weather conditions & right time of day - for me, a night attack is always preferred.

I got lucky my last patrol. I was in BF15 (somewhere S or SW of Ireland) heading NNW when I received an intel report of a large convoy heading ENE, and near enough that I was in a good intercept position. The time was about 2030 hrs, and the weather was stormy but I managed to get ahead of the convoy, submerge and lie in wait.
Hydrophones soon picked up sounds of the approaching convoy. I angled my boat roughly perpendicular to the convoy's course and lay in wait.

I soon picked out the approaching ships - a V&W class DD was leading followed by about 5 columns of juicy targets. I was fortunate that I was placed just between the centre column, which held all the big targets, and the 2nd left column. I saw 2 large tankers, a whaling ship, a large capital ship and approaching my stern was a large merchant.

To cut a long story short, I made mince meat of all the large ships I could spot. I started off by torpedoing the DD, and when a Flower class corvette cam to investigate I sank it too. The 3rd escort never even came close. I didn't even have to go silent running so I could reload as I took out the ships one by one. In all I sank seven ships in the convoy before bugging out.

What helped? I think luck played a large part. The time of day (it was a night attack), plus the storm helped mask me by degrading the enemy's ability to detect me. Lying in wait at the right spot, so that I had only to move ahead slow to get into optimal firing position. Luck also played a part in not having any duds or prematures!

I think the only part skill played, and it's really not very difficult, is to plot the intercept well enough ahead of the projected convoy so that I can lie in wait with time to spare. But it's not as easy as it sounds; earlier in the patrol I had attacked another convoy, sinking 3 ships, then withdrew to reload. But I couldn't re-establish contact, and I suspect the convoy changed course pretty soon after I withdrew to reload.

03-17-07, 10:23 PM	#2
Gildor Lieutenant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 251 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	5-Shot approach in VIIC A five shot approach can work. Here is how I do it: Diagram (crude but works): - The columns are about 700-800m apart. - Evade lead escort and approach as shown, silent and slow - Fire as shown, a electic3 moves about 900m a min so time as shown (aprox) - Most times you get the hits all within 10-15 sec, or at least before any significant change in cousre for zig-zag when your first torp goes boom. - immediately after firing the last stern shot, turn into column and dive at half ahead(4knots). Once a torp hits, use Captains discretion to escape but because you are under column the escorts will have to evade, giving you time to get deep. I will prob add more as I remember, (it's late) This works most of the time. It takes patience, timing and b*lls of steel. - __________________ U-46: Oct 1943 off Portugal

03-18-07, 09:28 AM	#6
Gildor Lieutenant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 251 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The diagram is not to scale so it looks a bit off. I use weapon officer assist because I beleive the Captain would not do Everything(tm) When it says "> 10 sec" it is as you guessed. dont fire before 10 sec, etc. I'm not saying this works everytime, but it has good results for me most of the time. I usually have, I would guess, 96 percent accuracy. The urge to fire and get the heck out of there is very high. Thats why I said be patient. They dont know you are there until either the first torp hits or your periscope is spotted. Timing the shots as i do, means they all hit within 10 - 15 sec of each other, but sometime it might be off. From what I recall, the torps move at 30knots max 5kms (t3 electric). I figure they move at about 850-900m a min aprox. Important: Most of the time if you aim for the first third of a ship, they will sink with one shot. It takes a while but they do sink. Dont get me wrong, some do make an escape but i can chase them down later if i am so inclined. Aim for the first mast. __________________ U-46: Oct 1943 off Portugal

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03-17-07, 06:02 PM	#1
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	e hartmann that is very interesting, but I am still trying to imagine playing that out in my head and I don't see how you can hit five boats. Are you using GWX? I have to be honest, in my convoy attacks i get away with one ship sunk and another wounded tops. I've never gotten away hitting more than 2 ships. Do you use manual TDC? I use manual only--and usually I try to get within 1000m or less for the shot to gaurantee hits. I also cannot stand to make a hit and then wait hours and hours for the ship to go down -- esp. if I have to leave the area and then dont even get credit for the kill while I'm out of range. So I always make sure the target is going down on the first attack run. As for hitting multiples, I have not experimented with shots other than 90AOB since its the safest. Not to mention you have to take into consideration the gyro angle for accuracy, it must take a while to get the hang of your method i would think. What does your target layout look like? I would imagine that you hit ships which are generally in front of you close to 90AOB just a varying distances in different columns? like this/ What is the maximum range you tend to fire on ships in the lanes and what is the max gyro angle and AOB you'll fire at?

03-17-07, 11:58 PM	#3
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	LOL! ha thats great--thanks for the diagram.. couple questions: --what speed settings do you set your torpedoes to? I did read something about electric so you can only set those to slow right? --when you say to fire >10 sec that means after 10 secs right? I assume you mean fire at about ten secs but not before... --doesnt the gyro angle on the left most target off of your port bow read a little high? do you usually get a hit? are you using manual TDC for this?? finally, I assume that these just wound the ships as mentioned before, so you have to go back and finish em off right? dont tell me you get critical hits every time!! thanks for the advice...like i said I just fire off all fish at the target in front of me--I hate waiting for them to go down, so I finish em off right then and there, but I only get away with one or two sinkings per attack as far as timing goes--how the hell do you keep your scope from getting knocked off by the time the merchant ship runs over you after you've fired your shots--how do you time this--by guesstimating or do you make calculations? thx agin

03-18-07, 12:23 AM	#4
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	I have been inside the lanes before, even with escorts about...but getting there wasnt easy. I was on the surface at about 1 knot speed low in the water with just the watch tower exposed and it was a dark moonless night. i lined up a shot on 4 of the largest ships i could find close to me with the bow tubes and let loose and crash dove down to about 150 meters and snuck away. all the shots hit their targets but nothing sunk... shadowed the convoy until the next evening when i did the exact same thing on the ships that showed signs of damage. walked away with 2 large tankers and 2 pyro ammunition ships and 1 tramp steamer i hit with a stern shot on the second night. it was 1942... fired them off and went deep and silent, never heard a single ping, and i dont think anyone really ever knew i was inside the lanes!

03-18-07, 01:13 AM	#5
supposedtobeworking XO Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 436 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	wow thats rediculous--do you use manual TDC??! I can't imagine getting in that position two times in a row and taking out the same ships...yer my hero..

03-18-07, 08:00 PM	#8
Zero Niner Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,033 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	I think it's a matter of both skill and luck. Skill of course is to remain undetected, but luck plays an enormous part, by being at the right place at the right time with the right weather conditions & right time of day - for me, a night attack is always preferred. I got lucky my last patrol. I was in BF15 (somewhere S or SW of Ireland) heading NNW when I received an intel report of a large convoy heading ENE, and near enough that I was in a good intercept position. The time was about 2030 hrs, and the weather was stormy but I managed to get ahead of the convoy, submerge and lie in wait. Hydrophones soon picked up sounds of the approaching convoy. I angled my boat roughly perpendicular to the convoy's course and lay in wait. I soon picked out the approaching ships - a V&W class DD was leading followed by about 5 columns of juicy targets. I was fortunate that I was placed just between the centre column, which held all the big targets, and the 2nd left column. I saw 2 large tankers, a whaling ship, a large capital ship and approaching my stern was a large merchant. To cut a long story short, I made mince meat of all the large ships I could spot. I started off by torpedoing the DD, and when a Flower class corvette cam to investigate I sank it too. The 3rd escort never even came close. I didn't even have to go silent running so I could reload as I took out the ships one by one. In all I sank seven ships in the convoy before bugging out. What helped? I think luck played a large part. The time of day (it was a night attack), plus the storm helped mask me by degrading the enemy's ability to detect me. Lying in wait at the right spot, so that I had only to move ahead slow to get into optimal firing position. Luck also played a part in not having any duds or prematures! I think the only part skill played, and it's really not very difficult, is to plot the intercept well enough ahead of the projected convoy so that I can lie in wait with time to spare. But it's not as easy as it sounds; earlier in the patrol I had attacked another convoy, sinking 3 ships, then withdrew to reload. But I couldn't re-establish contact, and I suspect the convoy changed course pretty soon after I withdrew to reload.