LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #13: The Stallion

[XabbaRus]

Right just looking in my Military Parade book from 2005 which is in effect a catalogue of the main naval weapons the APR series of weapons do a circle search pattern only.

The interesting feature is that they are dropped into the water and descend in a corkscrew patterwit the motor switched off, only engaging the motor once it has detected the target. So based on that I would leave the Stallion with the current payload and if you alter the APR series take into account what I have just written.

Also all sources seem to state the Type 82R torpedo as the payload for which I can't find much info or a recognisable name.

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Right just looking in my Military Parade book from 2005 which is in effect a catalogue of the main naval weapons the APR series of weapons do a circle search pattern only.

The interesting feature is that they are dropped into the water and descend in a corkscrew patterwit the motor switched off, only engaging the motor once it has detected the target. So based on that I would leave the Stallion with the current payload and if you alter the APR series take into account what I have just written.

Also all sources seem to state the Type 82R torpedo as the payload for which I can't find much info or a recognisable name.

Well, the best available data definately tells us that the APR-3 has not been deployed to the Stallion, it is certainly not ready. In fact, my gut tells me that the Russians have had loads of trouble developing virtually any new naval weapons systems for any number of reasons, such as failing to be able to maintain basic maintaince on a portion of their fleet...

But let's not fool ourselves... if we really wanted to have the most accurate mod possible, the Akula would probably be hopelessly vulnerable to just about everything in the US arsenal, so I like to think I'm modding a world where the Russians have at least nominal parity with the USN, which is clearly does not and never has had, especially when it comes to submarines.

So, I'm not compelled by the arguement that it HASN'T been doesn in RL so I shouldn't. I'd like to think if the Russians could develope already existing weapon systems they would, so I venture into the plausible, and thus I added to the game three Akula II Modified hulls that are currently unpaided for hulks rusting in their construction yards (or non-existent) but certainly WOULD have been finished by the Russians if they had the funds.

Xabba, the data you've given me regarding the APR is consistent with the information I have about the helo launched versions of the weapon, I suppose I'm assuming the SUBROC version would have a different feature-set.

Admittedly, its venturing on "dangerous ground" but not because there is not president in the mod, but because this is a very touchy subject (giving Russians effective weapons that is).

Of course, I could make the SW go 45+kts, make it twice as quiet and dive 500 ft deeper and that would be perfectly acceptable. :p

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

I mean, keep in mind, this is my "fall-back" position:

Reduce the speed of the MPT-1UE for the SS-N-27 to 45kts, and add the already existing APR-2E in the game to the Stallion as a circle search torpedo with a 1.5nm range @ 55kts.

Since this actually decreases the overall capability of the Akula SUBROCS while still making the Stallion modern and useful, I can't see the majority having a problem with this.

So, assume this is the change that is definately going to happen, but I want to go further, so either convince me not to, or encourage me, it's up to you.

Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

There seems to be agreement that the UGMT-1 is the actual payload. So determines my vote.

I advise caution in adding hypothetical weapons and capabilities. The title is "...realism mod" after all. That's not to say that it should never be done, but it should be done sparingly and only when there is both some evidence to suggest that it is accurate in RL and improves gameplay balance. I'm not convinced that is the case here.

And as for the "hurt the russians" swipe, I remind you that I argued for the akula-II to be nearly as quiet as the SW, for the Akula-1Imp to be quieter than the 688I, and for the Kilos to be quieter than all the nukes at patrol speeds. I even seem to remember that you had to turn the SW's NL up after one of the earlier versions because it was nearly invincible. =P

[LuftWolf]

The UMGT-1 IS the torpedo payload of the Stallion... from the late 1970's.

And 70% of USET-80's when tested at sea fail.

What's the fun of modding/playing a decrepit Russian fleet incapable of modernizing?

IF the Russians could, they WOULD mount an APR family weapon on the Stallion, this is what the best information shows currently. The weapons are not hypothetical, only the pairing of the weapons.

Cheers,
David

[Wim Libaers]

Well, in that case the question is if you want to balance all platforms for one on one duels, or if you want to approximate realism and let the mission designers deal with the imbalance by setting up scenarios where the technologically superior platform also gets a harder task.

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Wim Libaers

Well, in that case the question is if you want to balance all platforms for one on one duels, or if you want to approximate realism and let the mission designers deal with the imbalance by setting up scenarios where the technologically superior platform also gets a harder task.

I don't think that's the issue at hand. As I said before, balance can be achieved in various ways.

Swapping out the Stallion payload is not an issue of balance, its an issue of retiring a useless weapon from the game and replacing it with something that might actually see the light of day, and doing it along the lines of a plausible developement in Russian technology, which already gets the benefit of the doubt all over both the stock and modded databases.

This is directly equivalent to replacing the useless and redundant Mk46 with the Mk54.

Cheers,
David

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

But let's not fool ourselves... if we really wanted to have the most accurate mod possible, the Akula would probably be hopelessly vulnerable to just about everything in the US arsenal, so I like to think I'm modding a world where the Russians have at least nominal parity with the USN, which is clearly does not and never has had, especially when it comes to submarines.

Wow, those are some pretty bold statements...

Might I suggest some light reading... I just bought Submarine Technology for the 21 st Century by Stan Zimmerman and it presents some interesting facts and perspectives about the various capabilities/problems/innovations out between the nations. Of note is that Russians were the first nation to use Anechoic coating, the first to develop wakehoming torpedoes, and the first with supercavitating technology... those guys can put out great engineering.

If 80% of USET-80's failed, here's an interesting quote from the book to put that into perspective...

Originally Posted by Stan Zimmerman in "Submarine Technology for the 21st Century"

But torpedo unreliability continues to haunt American submariners. "We've learned the Mk 48 ADCAP isn't as good as we thought it would be. We're working on that," Vice Adm. Henry Chiles told a submarine audience in 1993. It is probable Chiles was thinking of a General Accounting Office report in late 1992. While the GAO was looking into the BSY-1 submarine combat system destined for the Improved 688-class of attack submarines, it also noted a devastating fact. A defense trade press publication reported, "Navy evaluators are also interest in available programs to correct torpedo deficiencies, but is [sic] concerned about about inadequate funding for that pursuit, GAO notes. Tests on the system's torpedo-engagment capabilites were hampered because about 56% of those torpedoes missed their targets due to technical failures."....

... The British suffered even more embarrasing problems with the Tigerfish heavyweight torpedo, which will be retired from the fleet by 2000, replaced by the newer Spearfish. The Tigerfish cost more than one billion British pounts ($1.6 billion) to develop but never proved successful. "[T]he disastrous saga of the Mark 24 Tigerfish provides a salutary example of exactly what can go wrong with a new weapon system," wrote Edwyn Gray. "It is said that early versions of the Mark 24 suffered a 75% failure rate -a record of misfortune that puts it in the same class as America's wartime Mark 14..."

[edit]excuse any typos

[LuftWolf]

However, at one point the USET-80 was a reliable torpedo.

The differences between the Russian problems and the problems mentioned above is that those weapons fail because they are cutting edge with teething techinical problems, the Russian weapons fail because they were manufactered 25 years ago and are well past their overhaul dates.

In regards to the Akula's and other Russian nukes, I am very suspicious of their current operating capabilities, particularly their quieting, given the current state of the Russian nuclear fleet, and also the fact that I suspect the Russian's active quieting systems are particularly maintenance intensive even over and above the regular issues of keeping up nuclear boats.

Cheers,
David

[LoBlo]

The Mk48 ADCAP had supposedly completed it operational evaluation, been approved for deployment, and instuted into active service for at least 5 years before the 1992 report. Even before that the ADCAP itself had been in development since 1975, more than 15 years earlier.

I've read that various British T-boat maintenance problems put every boat except one in repairs in 2000 with the only operational boat the Triumph. I think its fair to say that every navy has experienced both design and maintenance problems. If we really wanted to be objective, we would plague every boat with maintenance problems and every weapon with problematic failure probabilities, not just the Russians.

[LuftWolf]

Then it stands to reason the country in question with the smallest economy, highest levels of corruption, and lowest level of technology (Russia) would have the most problems.

Cheers,
David

[LoBlo]

Then perhaps we should change the name of the game to "Rickety Waters":p

Whoever has the most rickety boat looses

Press button "A" to simulate mopping up the oil leaks. First one finished wins.