GWX AI or the "Spiral of death" experience

[oRGy]

Or you could try to "de-uber" the destroyers by messing with sensors and AI values, since they're completely unrealistic in early war in GWX. The devs there seem to have this idea that harder=more realistic+more fun. In many cases this is true, but not here.

In fact, I recall someone questioning a former U-boot commander on the internet - I think it was Erich Topp? - about the relative difficulty of computer simulations vs real life and his quote was something like "In real life it was much easier." Perhaps someone could find the exact quote. I believe it was to do with AOTD.

When I was doing IuB I set the sensors to realistic values, which due to AI limitations made the DD's too easy to evade, but as I don't have SH3 anymore I would advise others to change the values themselves.

So, there are instructions around here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103589

And background info on sensors here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103968

Ciao.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by oRGy

Or you could try to "de-uber" the destroyers by messing with sensors and AI values, since they're completely unrealistic in early war in GWX. The devs there seem to have this idea that harder=more realistic+more fun. In many cases this is true, but not here.

In fact, I recall someone questioning a former U-boot commander on the internet - I think it was Erich Topp? - about the relative difficulty of computer simulations vs real life and his quote was something like "In real life it was much easier." Perhaps someone could find the exact quote. I believe it was to do with AOTD.

When I was doing IuB I set the sensors to realistic values, which due to AI limitations made the DD's too easy to evade, but as I don't have SH3 anymore I would advise others to change the values themselves.

So, there are instructions around here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103589

And background info on sensors here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103968

Ciao.

Right...

Actually, you bunch of people that are whining about the UBER destroyers and stuff...

I have done many patrols in Early war, I have challenged the Patrol Vessels, Escorts and DDs I have no problem with the sensors beeing too good. and they are NOT UBER! mostly people complain about them because its there own darn fault that they messed up something in the way they where doing it. Sound , Angle, Depth, Distance.

I can attack convoys easy..but YOU have to do it RIGHT.
I have many times been pinged when I attemp to enter the convoy...No matter, I have to waste a torpedo on him if I must. but otherwise I just Crashdive , and creep away.
and remember...the Wheater is a mayor factor against the AI sensors. the only way to attack without having to much problems is in heavy wheater.

so yet again : THE SENSORS IN GWX ARE NOT UBER!!!!!!!!
Stop blaming it, and IMPROVE UR TACTICS!


Reminder: this post is not aimed against the topic creater, but against the person I quoted and the rest of those UBER WHINERS

[oRGy]

so yet again : THE SENSORS IN GWX ARE NOT UBER!!!!!!!!
Stop blaming it, and IMPROVE UR TACTICS!

Reminder: this post is not aimed against the topic creater, but against the person I quoted (oRGy) and the rest of those UBER WHINERS

I do not consider myself a whiner, but I have no trouble in saying that you are as ignorant as you are rude.

I created the Improved U-Boat 1.02 mod, if you care to recall, and spent many hours researching and going over the AI sensors and adjusting them to historically correct values.

After doing this, some users complained that the DD AI was 'nerfed' in comparison to stock. This was due to limitations of the AI and foolish design decisions by the SH3 devs, so clearly historically correct values have to be changed to get a realistic outcome. I had no problem accepting the input of players in this case.

However, GWX goes too far in the other direction in my opinion.

Subs having to dive to 180m+ and go to silent running to have a chance to evade a DD in 1939 is ludicrous. First of all, not every boat in '39 even had ASDIC, but assuming they did, the early models were extemely ineffective and didn't scan below 100m, never mind the fact that all crews in the RN at this time were completely untrained for ASW warfare!

A players periscope being detected by an armed TUG boat, in 1940 at 2800 meters while they player was in a type II @ 2 knots is ludicrous. As a former naval watch officer posted:

I stood watch as a contact coordinator on 2 classes of submarines, I can assure you that at 28 hunderd meters the only way to spot a WWII attack scope that was raised for 6 seconds is to be looking exactly where it is when its raised.

The initial detection was by sonar, sorry that capability is highly questionable in my experience. I can assure that passively, that detection would be 97% impossible, especially with the surface duct working the way it would in a real ocean enviroment. I have seen modern passive sonar miss a surface ship that was 1000 yards away!

I can almost guarantee that that capability is far above and beyond what was capable in 1940, even under good conditions. Not saying a fluke detection isnt possible, hell I'll tell ya I heard and seen some strange stuff out there, but the norm is not that good.

Certainly, some of the complaints by people just involve laziness. My position is that the AI should match the historical model, not some persons idea of "hard" in order to separate "the men from the boys". Nor should it be too easy in order to pander to some players lack of care and desire for instant gratification. As another poster said:

Of the 9 U-boats sunk in 1939, two were sunk by mines and one by a British sub. The other six were destroyed by depth charges from 2 or 3 ASW vessels (never by just one alone.) Also in at least 2 cases, premature torpedo detonation or broaching the surface gave the U-boat's approximate position away.)

Of the 24 U-boats sunk in 1940, two were rammed by friendly or neutral ships, two were sunk by aircraft, two more by British subs, and 7 definitely and probably one more were lost to mines. Two were sunk by combinations of 4 destroyers and a Sunderland, and the remaining 8 by ASW vessels, mostly multiple ASW vessels.

If GWX results follow this pattern, then it is realistic and I have no complaints. If a player can engage in historical tactics of U-boat commanders and achieve the same results as them, then I have no complaints. If this is not the case, then GWX is unrealistic and accusing others of being "UBER WHINERS" is immature and unhelpful. Instead, new sensor values should be suggested.

Ciao

PS - I have no intention of posting further in this thread.

[mr chris]

Originally Posted by oRGy

I do not consider myself a whiner, but I have no trouble in saying that you are ignorant.

I created the Improved U-Boat 1.02 mod, if you care to recall, and spent many hours researching and going over the AI sensors and adjusting them to historically correct values.

After doing this, users noted that the DD AI was 'nerfed' in comparison to stock. This was due to limitations of the AI and foolish design decisions by the SH3 devs, so clearly historically correct values have to be changed to get a realistic outcome.

However, GWX goes too far in the other direction in my opinion.

Subs having to dive to 180m+ and go to silent running to have a chance to evade a DD in 1939 is ludicrous. First of all, not every boat in '39 even had ASDIC, but assuming they did, the early models were extemely ineffective and didn't scan below 100m, never mind the fact that all crews in the RN at this time were completely untrained for ASW warfare!

A players periscope being detected by an armed TUG boat, in 1940 at 2800 meters while they player was in a type II @ 2 knots is ludicrous. As a former naval watch officer posted:

Certainly, some of the complaints by people just involve laziness. My position is that the AI should match the historical model, not some modders of idea of "hard" in order to separate "the men from the boys". As another poster said:

If GWX results follow this pattern, then it is realistic and I have no complaints. If a player can engage in historical tactics of U-boat commanders and achieve the same results as them, then I have no complaints. If this is not the case, then GWX is unrealistic and accusing others of being "UBER WHINERS" is immature and unhelpful.

Ciao

Well if you dont like what you see in GWX with the sensors don't play the mod.
No one is forcing you to play a mod that you dont like. If your mod the Improved U-Boat 1.02 mod is so great why are you playing GWX?
Dont go round ripping into other peoples hard work with such immature and unhelpful words as UBER. i doubt you would have liked people to have pulled your work though the mud.

[HunterICX]

Using the Historical Valeus into SH3 doesnt give you the HISTORICAL outcome

it doesnt, why? simple you cannot model AI stupidity or unawareness.


and I 180 Meters in 1939, Dont make me laugh.
I have been detected a couple of times in 1939, I never dove deeper then 60 - 80 meters.

and 1 time I had 5 DDs above me in the *ENGLISH* channel
they KNEW I was there...they Pinged me, and guess what
the Accuracy is so off that they dropped DCs 30 - 50 Meters around me not even doing the slightest damage. 30 meters was my MAX or else I slammed into the bottom...I had to manourve for a couple of hours...and I had some luck , it turned dark and I could creep away. but that was clear weather.

and ofcourse 1939 is easy. but read the title of the game ''!!!!!SILENT!!!!! hunter 3'' dont take the enemy on easy.

btw...maybe you should install SH3 again and try GWX before yourself before you blame the sensors beeing to uber. they are NOT.

Stock Sh3 was ARCADE style, and now it gets a bit too realistic and BOOHOOO I get myself sunk too much. I cant duke it out on the surface anymore. I cant attack convoy in my rampage way.

maybe you should act as a REAL uboat commander before complaing because in RL they could Cry that the Enemy sensors where to uber...why not...they where busy trying to be as silent as posible.....or they where sleeping with the fishes.

If they where uber...why is my U-45 still alive ? and I made some errors and paid for it...but I had to change my way of playing the game. this game is about using ur brains! and not brutal force and sink the biggest ships.