Is SHIII + GWX What Stock SHIII Should Have Been in the First Place?

GT182 · 12-31-06, 10:57 PM

Many things that are wrong or incorrect in stock SHIII are hardcoded and unchangeable. That's why GWX didn't correct the errors some complain about. And there's no way the source code will ever be given for them to be fixed. So we have to live with what we have... and GWX makes it as close as it can be for now.

The same thing happened with B17 "the Mighty 8th" as GSpecter knows all too well. We begged for that to be fixed but it all fell on deaf ears. The same will happen with SHIII if a fix is ever asked for again. That's a given we all know, as the 5th patch was asked for. The answer was "it ain't gonna happen, SHIV is more important". Just hope they do SHIV right, right from the start. But IMHO, I don't think that will happen either.

LeafsFan · 01-01-07, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT182

Just hope they do SHIV right, right from the start. But IMHO, I don't think that will happen either.

Me too.

HB

azn_132 · 01-01-07, 08:24 AM

Me Three.

01-01-07, 10:34 AM

To the original question - goddamn no, we would have waited all these !years! for it then - i have been having fun with StockSHIII, Rub in any form and GW1.1 for a long time, GWX is what carries on the torch for me.

A hell of a job.

I can't help to place similarities between Falcon4.0 and SHIII - both were far beyond anything we had when they came out - and both have been taken to unbelivable levels by comunity modders. I'm flying Falcon4.0 on my 8th year now in 87th Stray Dogs, and i can't see that stop anytime soon - Falcon just IS that great.

SHIII has one MAJOR advantage though - it has developers, that imo works with the comunity in ways i would wish for for Falcon. And they continue to develope the product beyond what i had dared hope for - WAY TO GO DUDES.

Iron Budokan · 01-01-07, 10:40 AM

I agree. The community and modders for the subsim community are awesome. We can never praise them enough, imo.

But I'm curious. Why do so many people believe SH4 will not be developed properly? Is it because of the experience with UBI in the past or what? Jus' wonderin'....

GT182 · 01-01-07, 10:34 PM

Quote:

by Mav87th
SHIII has one MAJOR advantage though - it has developers, that imo works with the comunity in ways i would wish for for Falcon. And they continue to develope the product beyond what i had dared hope for - WAY TO GO DUDES.

Mav, the developers abandoned SHIII after patch 1.4b was given to us. I think the advantage you speak of for SHIII comes from the modders. They've done all the work to bring SHIII to the level it is now, the developers had nothing to do with it. Just as they had nothing to do with GWX, all that work was by modders only.

mookiemookie · 01-01-07, 11:48 PM

No, it's not what the game should be. However, it's brought the game a long way from stock SH3 which was incomplete for all the reasons that everyone has already outlined. A few more off the top of my head, and some that people have already brought up that I'd like to reiterate:

1. Lack of wolfpacks. Come on...that's what U-boats are KNOWN for! To leave out their trademark tactic is unacceptable.

2. Milk cows. Yes, they've been modded in but they still don't feel quite right since you're starting a new patrol everytime you dock at one, and you get a full loadout of torpedos and fuel instead of a partial resupply which is more realistic. There was talk from the developers at one point that they were to be added in a patch that never materialized.

3. Stock damage model. It's a joke. To attempt to simulate physics with "hit points" is garbage. The mods have come a LONG way in fixing this aspect though.

4. The miscellaneous errors in equipment availability dates, range you can travel on batteries, etc. That info can be found in five minutes on uboat.net, or in any one of the numerous books on U-boats. Mods have fixed this, thankfully.

5. Airplane behavior/physics. Wonky at best, pitiful at worst. Mods have improved this significantly, but there's still room for it to be better. I guess this is about as good as it gets though.

6. Operational areas. The Med in stock SH3 is nearly empty, and the Indian ocean/Asia *is* empty. While I can understand the focus being on the Battle of the Atlantic, SH3 is still a U-boat sim and U-boats did operate in these areas. Luckily we've got this fixed.

7. No other missions besides "Patrol Grid XXXX for 24 hrs" and not being able to request a new patrol grid from BdU. I guess we're stuck with this. SH3 Gen provides a nice workaround for that though. Wish it was a bit more integrated into the game (i.e. SH3Gen missions show up in your orders, you get renown for accomplishing them, etc), but this can't happen unfortunately.

8. Playing The Sims: Happy U-Boat Funtime! with your crew. I have better things to do than click on crewmen to see who's rested up enough to make the damn engines run. Not much to be done about this...

9. The weather model is crummy. I know the North Atlantic was a crappy place in the winter, but come on. Three straight weeks of hurricane force winds and rain doesn't seem quite realistic to me.

10. Lack of real control over your U-boat. I'd like to see being able to run on one engine, run on e-motor on the surface, run with decks awash, the ability to give an abandon ship order...heck, even let me control the dive planes. (Actually, poking through the sounds folder, it looks like they were going to include shallow and steep dives at one point as there's a crewman voice file confirming the order)

GWX is an outstanding mod, and my hat is off to Kpt. Lehmann and his band of merry men. It brings the game a long way from what it was. But since most of the defects I've laid out are hard coded into the game and without access to the source code or the release of a software development kit (I guess hope for that is pretty much dead with the developers working on SHIV)...it just cannot be what a true U-boat simulation should be.

GSpector · 01-02-07, 12:02 AM

I agree with GT but I will give credit where credit is also due. The Developers did give us this product that we still enjoy so much and they made it open enough for us to improve upon it. Sadly though, they also gave us a product that needed to be improved upon so soon out the door.

Now, if they gave us a product as bad as some seem to claim, I don't think anyone here would have touched it let alone bought it when the word got out.

So I

those that stood up and not only said they can make it better but actually did. Yes, I

you too GT and all the Beta Testers.

12-31-06, 10:57 PM	#1
GT182 Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: New Castle of Delaware Posts: 3,231 Downloads: 658 Uploads: 0	Many things that are wrong or incorrect in stock SHIII are hardcoded and unchangeable. That's why GWX didn't correct the errors some complain about. And there's no way the source code will ever be given for them to be fixed. So we have to live with what we have... and GWX makes it as close as it can be for now. The same thing happened with B17 "the Mighty 8th" as GSpecter knows all too well. We begged for that to be fixed but it all fell on deaf ears. The same will happen with SHIII if a fix is ever asked for again. That's a given we all know, as the 5th patch was asked for. The answer was "it ain't gonna happen, SHIV is more important". Just hope they do SHIV right, right from the start. But IMHO, I don't think that will happen either. __________________ Gary No Borders, No Language, No Culture =s No Country I'm a Deplorable, and proud of it.

01-01-07, 10:40 AM	#5
Iron Budokan Sea Lord Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 1,778 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	I agree. The community and modders for the subsim community are awesome. We can never praise them enough, imo. But I'm curious. Why do so many people believe SH4 will not be developed properly? Is it because of the experience with UBI in the past or what? Jus' wonderin'.... __________________ "You will take on England wherever you find her ships, and you will break her power at sea." --Iron Coffins, Herbert A. Werner http://kennethmarkhoover.com

01-01-07, 11:48 PM	#7
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	No, it's not what the game should be. However, it's brought the game a long way from stock SH3 which was incomplete for all the reasons that everyone has already outlined. A few more off the top of my head, and some that people have already brought up that I'd like to reiterate: 1. Lack of wolfpacks. Come on...that's what U-boats are KNOWN for! To leave out their trademark tactic is unacceptable. 2. Milk cows. Yes, they've been modded in but they still don't feel quite right since you're starting a new patrol everytime you dock at one, and you get a full loadout of torpedos and fuel instead of a partial resupply which is more realistic. There was talk from the developers at one point that they were to be added in a patch that never materialized. 3. Stock damage model. It's a joke. To attempt to simulate physics with "hit points" is garbage. The mods have come a LONG way in fixing this aspect though. 4. The miscellaneous errors in equipment availability dates, range you can travel on batteries, etc. That info can be found in five minutes on uboat.net, or in any one of the numerous books on U-boats. Mods have fixed this, thankfully. 5. Airplane behavior/physics. Wonky at best, pitiful at worst. Mods have improved this significantly, but there's still room for it to be better. I guess this is about as good as it gets though. 6. Operational areas. The Med in stock SH3 is nearly empty, and the Indian ocean/Asia is empty. While I can understand the focus being on the Battle of the Atlantic, SH3 is still a U-boat sim and U-boats did operate in these areas. Luckily we've got this fixed. 7. No other missions besides "Patrol Grid XXXX for 24 hrs" and not being able to request a new patrol grid from BdU. I guess we're stuck with this. SH3 Gen provides a nice workaround for that though. Wish it was a bit more integrated into the game (i.e. SH3Gen missions show up in your orders, you get renown for accomplishing them, etc), but this can't happen unfortunately. 8. Playing The Sims: Happy U-Boat Funtime! with your crew. I have better things to do than click on crewmen to see who's rested up enough to make the damn engines run. Not much to be done about this... 9. The weather model is crummy. I know the North Atlantic was a crappy place in the winter, but come on. Three straight weeks of hurricane force winds and rain doesn't seem quite realistic to me. 10. Lack of real control over your U-boat. I'd like to see being able to run on one engine, run on e-motor on the surface, run with decks awash, the ability to give an abandon ship order...heck, even let me control the dive planes. (Actually, poking through the sounds folder, it looks like they were going to include shallow and steep dives at one point as there's a crewman voice file confirming the order) GWX is an outstanding mod, and my hat is off to Kpt. Lehmann and his band of merry men. It brings the game a long way from what it was. But since most of the defects I've laid out are hard coded into the game and without access to the source code or the release of a software development kit (I guess hope for that is pretty much dead with the developers working on SHIV)...it just cannot be what a true U-boat simulation should be. __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

01-02-07, 12:02 AM	#8
GSpector Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 676 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	I agree with GT but I will give credit where credit is also due. The Developers did give us this product that we still enjoy so much and they made it open enough for us to improve upon it. Sadly though, they also gave us a product that needed to be improved upon so soon out the door. Now, if they gave us a product as bad as some seem to claim, I don't think anyone here would have touched it let alone bought it when the word got out. So I those that stood up and not only said they can make it better but actually did. Yes, I you too GT and all the Beta Testers. __________________ Specter

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01-01-07, 08:24 AM	#3
azn_132 Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 950 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Me Three.

01-01-07, 10:34 AM	#4
Mav87th Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	To the original question - goddamn no, we would have waited all these !years! for it then - i have been having fun with StockSHIII, Rub in any form and GW1.1 for a long time, GWX is what carries on the torch for me. A hell of a job. I can't help to place similarities between Falcon4.0 and SHIII - both were far beyond anything we had when they came out - and both have been taken to unbelivable levels by comunity modders. I'm flying Falcon4.0 on my 8th year now in 87th Stray Dogs, and i can't see that stop anytime soon - Falcon just IS that great. SHIII has one MAJOR advantage though - it has developers, that imo works with the comunity in ways i would wish for for Falcon. And they continue to develope the product beyond what i had dared hope for - WAY TO GO DUDES.