i love the middle east

Sea Demon · 12-12-06, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

That "conference" is all the more reason I was hoping Israel would be less keen on weapons of mass murder, having experienced some themselves.

Why don't you focus that on Iran. Isreal has nuclear weapons, yet threatens nobody with them. Same with the USA. In fact, I believe we should have bombed the living daylights out of Iran already and have been done with it. When the time came, Ronald Reagan bombed Libya when they started this nonsense, and it ended their programs. Yes, bomb them. Regardless of what the "peace at any price" people think, war will not ever become obsolete. At least in our lifetimes. Hopefully someday in the future. But as long as Ahmadinijad's, and Li' Kim's of North Korea exist you can forget about it. It's too bad the "peace at any price" people have so evacuated American will in this day and age. It's going to turn around and bite us in the end. Fight em' now, or let them grow in capability and fight a more dangerous enemy later.

CCIP · 12-12-06, 04:02 PM

I don't think it's fair to say who threatens who, or at least that Israel's position with nukes is crystal-clear. Israel denies having nuclear weapons; Iran denies the intention to produce it. The USA has made repeated attempts to pass provisions to allow tactical use of nuclear weapons. Iran has made nasty allusions to wiping out Israel; Israel doesn't have to make any allusions to the fact that anyone who hurts Israel repays at least ten-fold. It doesn't have to make them because it does that on a daily basis anyway, just that we don't have it happening at a nuclear level.

This thread is not about Iran, that's why I'm not focusing on it. And you must be reading rather selectively not to notice my repeated statements that Iran is obviously a threat to Israel foremost. Sure, by all means, "fight 'em now". For Israel, it's the 11th hour on that. But "fight" and "nuke" are so incompatible it's beyond ridiculous.

Sea Demon · 12-12-06, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

I don't think it's fair to say who threatens who, or at least that Israel's position with nukes is crystal-clear. Israel denies having nuclear weapons; Iran denies the intention to produce it. The USA has made repeated attempts to pass provisions to allow tactical use of nuclear weapons.

I don't know. I may just find it disturbing the moral equivalency you assign to both Iran and Isreal. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map? Same with an American President?

CCIP · 12-12-06, 04:14 PM

I don't think I put them at an equivalent morally; and I certainly think Israel is a far safer bet than Iran. But when the gloves come off, I wouldn't put anything past Israel. If a nuke heads for Tel-Aviv, don't expect me to be applauding Tehran disappearing off the map. I know it won't happen in the reverse order.

Don't get me wrong; I'm certainly at a point where I would more or less favour a swift, forceful, conventional solution to the Iran issue. I have a very close cousin in Haifa, and a number of good classmates from Tehran. I want the whole thing to be as painless for both as possible.

Sea Demon · 12-12-06, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

I want the whole thing to be as painless for both as possible.

Mark my words. When it comes down to it, it's going to be anything but painless. Wishing for things won't make it so. Evacuating America's/Isreal's will, won't make it better, but prolong the inevitable at a greater cost down the road.

The Avon Lady · 12-12-06, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Wishing for things won't make it so.

See my sig's bottom line quote.

G'nite!

CCIP · 12-12-06, 04:31 PM

So what are you suggesting exactly? Conventional solution no longer good enough for both of you?

Well, let my views of gun ownership be known: I have a perfectly good axe within reach.

Sea Demon · 12-12-06, 04:33 PM

In addition, I hope for less pain on Isreal than Iran when it comes down to it. I wish for more pain on Iran than America when it all comes out in the wash. If it's us versus them, I choose us and allied nations to survive.

Fish · 12-14-06, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Demon
[quote

. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map?

What about Mr. Avigdor Lieberman

Quote:

In 2002, the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth quoted Lieberman in a Cabinet meeting saying that the Palestinians should be given an ultimatum that "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers...at noon we'll bomb their gas stations...at two we'll bomb their banks....”[7] In 2003, Ha'aretz reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9]
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government. He said: "World War II ended with the Nurenberg trials. The heads of the Nazi regime, along with their collaborators, were executed. I hope this will be the fate of the collaborators in [the Knesset]."[10] In response, Arab Israeli Knesset member Ahmed Tibi, demanded that "a criminal investigation be initiated against Lieberman for violating the law against incitement and racism".[11] He called Lieberman "a very dangerous and sophisticated politician who has won his support through race hatred." Lieberman was cleared of racism charges by the Israeli Deputy State prosecutor, while admitting that the office objected to the content of his statement. Tibi, strongly objected to Lieberman's ministerial appointment, describing him as "a racist and a fascist". Labour minister Ophir Pines-Paz, who resigned over Lieberman's appointment, echoed Tibi's remarks, saying that Lieberman was tainted "by racist declarations and declarations that harm the democratic character of Israel".[12]

The Avon Lady · 12-14-06, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Demon
[quote

. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map?

What about Mr. Avigdor Lieberman

Quote:

In 2002, the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth quoted Lieberman in a Cabinet meeting saying that the Palestinians should be given an ultimatum that "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers...at noon we'll bomb their gas stations...at two we'll bomb their banks....”[7] In 2003, Ha'aretz reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9]
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government. He said: "World War II ended with the Nurenberg trials. The heads of the Nazi regime, along with their collaborators, were executed. I hope this will be the fate of the collaborators in [the Knesset]."[10] In response, Arab Israeli Knesset member Ahmed Tibi, demanded that "a criminal investigation be initiated against Lieberman for violating the law against incitement and racism".[11] He called Lieberman "a very dangerous and sophisticated politician who has won his support through race hatred." Lieberman was cleared of racism charges by the Israeli Deputy State prosecutor, while admitting that the office objected to the content of his statement. Tibi, strongly objected to Lieberman's ministerial appointment, describing him as "a racist and a fascist". Labour minister Ophir Pines-Paz, who resigned over Lieberman's appointment, echoed Tibi's remarks, saying that Lieberman was tainted "by racist declarations and declarations that harm the democratic character of Israel".[12]

What about the fact that the PLO and Hamas charters, in existance way before Avigdor Lieberman even arrived in Israel, call for the destruction of Israel?

A case of putting the cart before the horse, perhaps? Who needs context!

kiwi_2005 · 12-14-06, 08:48 AM

Crazy bald heads.

War, war, war.

stabiz · 12-14-06, 08:57 AM

The Israeli government is just as crazy as the Palestinians, by the way.

Iceman · 12-14-06, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

Crazy bald heads.

War, war, war.

You crack me up Kiwi...lol. WTH is that all about lol? Crazy Bald Heads...are you talking about Buddahist Monks?

Fish · 12-14-06, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Demon
[quote

. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map?

What about Mr. Avigdor Lieberman

Quote:

In 2002, the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth quoted Lieberman in a Cabinet meeting saying that the Palestinians should be given an ultimatum that "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers...at noon we'll bomb their gas stations...at two we'll bomb their banks....”[7] In 2003, Ha'aretz reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9]
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government. He said: "World War II ended with the Nurenberg trials. The heads of the Nazi regime, along with their collaborators, were executed. I hope this will be the fate of the collaborators in [the Knesset]."[10] In response, Arab Israeli Knesset member Ahmed Tibi, demanded that "a criminal investigation be initiated against Lieberman for violating the law against incitement and racism".[11] He called Lieberman "a very dangerous and sophisticated politician who has won his support through race hatred." Lieberman was cleared of racism charges by the Israeli Deputy State prosecutor, while admitting that the office objected to the content of his statement. Tibi, strongly objected to Lieberman's ministerial appointment, describing him as "a racist and a fascist". Labour minister Ophir Pines-Paz, who resigned over Lieberman's appointment, echoed Tibi's remarks, saying that Lieberman was tainted "by racist declarations and declarations that harm the democratic character of Israel".[12]

What about the fact that the PLO and Hamas charters, in existance way before Avigdor Lieberman even arrived in Israel, call for the destruction of Israel?

A case of putting the cart before the horse, perhaps? Who needs context!

Just answered SD's question.

The Avon Lady · 12-14-06, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Demon
[quote

. When was the last time you heard an Isreali PM say he wanted to wipe anybody off the map?

What about Mr. Avigdor Lieberman

Quote:

In 2002, the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth quoted Lieberman in a Cabinet meeting saying that the Palestinians should be given an ultimatum that "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers...at noon we'll bomb their gas stations...at two we'll bomb their banks....”[7] In 2003, Ha'aretz reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there.[8] In May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.[9]
In November 2006 Lieberman called for the execution of any Arab Members of Knesset who meet with representatives of the Palestinian government. He said: "World War II ended with the Nurenberg trials. The heads of the Nazi regime, along with their collaborators, were executed. I hope this will be the fate of the collaborators in [the Knesset]."[10] In response, Arab Israeli Knesset member Ahmed Tibi, demanded that "a criminal investigation be initiated against Lieberman for violating the law against incitement and racism".[11] He called Lieberman "a very dangerous and sophisticated politician who has won his support through race hatred." Lieberman was cleared of racism charges by the Israeli Deputy State prosecutor, while admitting that the office objected to the content of his statement. Tibi, strongly objected to Lieberman's ministerial appointment, describing him as "a racist and a fascist". Labour minister Ophir Pines-Paz, who resigned over Lieberman's appointment, echoed Tibi's remarks, saying that Lieberman was tainted "by racist declarations and declarations that harm the democratic character of Israel".[12]

What about the fact that the PLO and Hamas charters, in existance way before Avigdor Lieberman even arrived in Israel, call for the destruction of Israel?

A case of putting the cart before the horse, perhaps? Who needs context!

Just answered SD's question.

Let me remind you that Lieberman is not an Israeli PM but a parliament seta holder and political party leader.

So, no, you have yet to answer SD's question.

12-12-06, 04:02 PM	#2
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I don't think it's fair to say who threatens who, or at least that Israel's position with nukes is crystal-clear. Israel denies having nuclear weapons; Iran denies the intention to produce it. The USA has made repeated attempts to pass provisions to allow tactical use of nuclear weapons. Iran has made nasty allusions to wiping out Israel; Israel doesn't have to make any allusions to the fact that anyone who hurts Israel repays at least ten-fold. It doesn't have to make them because it does that on a daily basis anyway, just that we don't have it happening at a nuclear level. This thread is not about Iran, that's why I'm not focusing on it. And you must be reading rather selectively not to notice my repeated statements that Iran is obviously a threat to Israel foremost. Sure, by all means, "fight 'em now". For Israel, it's the 11th hour on that. But "fight" and "nuke" are so incompatible it's beyond ridiculous. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

12-12-06, 04:14 PM	#4
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I don't think I put them at an equivalent morally; and I certainly think Israel is a far safer bet than Iran. But when the gloves come off, I wouldn't put anything past Israel. If a nuke heads for Tel-Aviv, don't expect me to be applauding Tehran disappearing off the map. I know it won't happen in the reverse order. Don't get me wrong; I'm certainly at a point where I would more or less favour a swift, forceful, conventional solution to the Iran issue. I have a very close cousin in Haifa, and a number of good classmates from Tehran. I want the whole thing to be as painless for both as possible. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

12-12-06, 04:31 PM	#7
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	So what are you suggesting exactly? Conventional solution no longer good enough for both of you? Well, let my views of gun ownership be known: I have a perfectly good axe within reach. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

12-14-06, 08:48 AM	#11
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	Crazy bald heads. War, war, war. __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.

12-14-06, 08:57 AM	#12
stabiz Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 4,224 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	The Israeli government is just as crazy as the Palestinians, by the way. __________________

12-12-06, 04:33 PM	#8
Sea Demon Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,552 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	In addition, I hope for less pain on Isreal than Iran when it comes down to it. I wish for more pain on Iran than America when it all comes out in the wash. If it's us versus them, I choose us and allied nations to survive.

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