The dark age is coming back

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Gizzmoe

The article concluded that it´s absolutely impossible to make up such a story. Do you agree with that or can you imagine that´s there is a chance (however small) that the story isn´t true?

I don't know. The Torah's text has retained its text wherever we Jews have traveled. There is no major difference (other than a letter or pronunciation vowel here and there) between Torah scroll written in the past or in Israel, Europe, Morocco, England, Russia, etc.

The entire Torah is read, in portions, every Sabbath, over the span of each Jewish calendar year, repeated again every year. This is listed as one of the commandents instituted by Moses himself.

The article early on quotes verses in Deuteronomy that state:

[Moses told the Israelites]: 'Only beware for yourself and greatly beware for your soul, lest you forget the things that your eyes have beheld. Do not remove this memory from your heart all the days of your life. Teach your children and your children's children about the day that you stood before the Lord your God at Horev [Mount Sinai]...

God spoke to you from the midst of the fire, you were hearing the sound of words, but you were not seeing a form, only a sound. He told you of His covenant, instructing you to keep the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.' (Deut.4:9-13)

'You have been shown in order to know that God, He is the Supreme Being. There is none besides Him. From heaven he let you hear His voice in order to teach you, and on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words amid the fire.' (Deut. 4:32-36)

Moses called all of Israel and said to them: 'Hear, O Israel, the decrees and the ordinances that I speak in your ears today -- learn them, and be careful to perform them. The Lord your God sealed a covenant with us at Horev [Mount Sinai]. Not with our forefathers did God seal this covenant, but with us -- we who are here, all of us alive today. Face to face did God speak with you on the mountain from amid the fire.' (Deut. 5:1-4)

I will get a little bit smirky again and add that the importance of education has always been a high priority religious obligation in Judaism.

Now explain to me how an entire nation accepted as fact the above verses if they were introduced to them "after the fact", with no continuity that anyone beforehand ever heard of? I wouldn't. I don't know anyone that would. Would you? I assume not.

Again, think about it. :hmm:

[Gizzmoe]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Now explain to me how an entire nation accepted as fact the above verses if they were introduced to them "after the fact", with no continuity that anyone beforehand ever heard of? I wouldn't. I don't know anyone that would. Would you? I assume not.

Again, think about it. :hmm:

I honestly can´t answer that. But in a religion where I am not allowed to eat things like shrimp cocktails, pork chops, lobster thermidor, cheeseburger, prosciutto or salami pizza, smoked eel, sturgeon caviar or steak smothered in cream gravy everything is possible. Think about it! Sorry...

In which year did the first complete version of the Torah appear? How old is the oldest existing Torah?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Gizzmoe

I honestly can´t answer that. But in a religion where I am not allowed to eat things like shrimp cocktails, pork chops, lobster thermidor, cheeseburger, prosciutto or salami pizza, smoked eel, sturgeon caviar or steak smothered in cream gravy everything is possible. Think about it! Sorry...

We just finished thick shoulder steaks for supper.

In which year did the first complete version of the Torah appear?

About 3500 years ago, on the last day of Moses' life:

"Then Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel."
- Deuteronomy 31:9

How old is the oldest existing Torah?

About 650 years old.

The leather parchments deteriorate and the ink fades and cracks, rendering the Torah invalid. Writing a Torah requires exactitude. One mistake, even the ink of 2 letters touching one another, invalidates the Torah from being used for obligatory readings. That's how demanding we are in accuracy.

[Gizzmoe]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

About 650 years old.

So there´s roughly 2850 years between the oldest existing Torah and the "original" one. Guess what comes next... In 2850 years a lot of things can happen, how can you be sure that no one actually changed parts of it to their liking at one point? That wouldn´t be the only scripture where that happened...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Gizzmoe

So there´s roughly 2850 years between the oldest existing Torah and the "original" one. Guess what comes next... In 2850 years a lot of things can happen, how can you be sure that no one actually changed parts of it to their liking at one point? That wouldn´t be the only scripture where that happened...

Please explain how come there has never been a major discepancy anytime in the 1000's of years of Jewish history between Torahs throughout the world?

If someone slipped something in:

1. How did it get everywhere else, where the text was not like that (and again, there never has been such a case - scoure the almost 2 volumes of both the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud, which quibbles over the smallest legal differences and you won't find a single instance of a major disgression between Torah texts anywhere.

2. How did everyone accept what it said when that's not what it said the day before and when it clearly states that it's referring to their ancestors who came out of Egypt? This was the original point made a few post's back (i.e., neither you nor I would stand for this).

[Gizzmoe]

I can´t answer any of that. All I´m saying is that 2850 years are a bloody long time, and though it doesn´t automatically mean that something was changed, it is kinda likely that at one point someone or a group of people actually changed parts of the scripture, by adding or removing something or whatever. If you would tell me that 2500 years ago there were like thousands of Torahs then it would be indeed very unlikely that something was changed, but still not impossible.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Gizzmoe

I can´t answer any of that. All I´m saying is that 2850 years are a bloody long time, and though it doesn´t automatically mean that something was changed, it is kinda likely that at one point someone actually changed parts of the scripture, by adding or removing something or whatever. If you would tell me that 2500 years ago there were like thousands of Torahs then it would be indeed very unlikely that something was changed,

2500 years ago there were like thousands of Torahs.

but still not impossible.

Is the inverse of that "probable"? :hmm: You said it, not me.