Some moral questions by a German...

[Spaxspore]

(please forgive any spelling/grammer mistakes)
OK i have to jump in here about the german tools of ww2. Yes they did have some pretty advanced weapons compared to the allies in the early years of the war 39-42

But once america joined in thier advances in certain areas were not so proment.

First, lets compare infantry weapons.

Main field infantry weapon of the US(rifle)
-M1 Grande .30-06 Semi auto 8 round emi-block clip

Main Field infantry weapon of the German Army (rifle)
-8mm K98k bolt action w/ 5 round internal mag.

I own both of these weapons and shot both weekly at my local firing range. The M1 grande is a supior weapon

why?

1.30-06 is a more powerful then the 8mm, higher velocity and better stopping power
2.You can fire 8 rounds and reload with the ingenius block clip 10 times faster then u can with a k98k using bolt action and a stripper clip


Main sub machine gun US- Thompson/Grease Gun

Main Sub Machine Gun Ger- MP40

.45acp owns a 9mm... trust me
Stoping power and higher cailber


Main Pistol US- Colt cailber .45 semi Auto 1911

Main Pistol Ger- Walther p38, Luger 9mm

same reason as above, stoping power and higher cailber
I own both btw (p38/1911)

As for machine guns, i would take a mg42 over a 30cal browning just because the mg42 had proven its self to be the best ww2 machine gun of the war.


Now off to the aircraft

Who had the better bombers= US
WHy?- Germany had no true hvy bomber. Thus it couldnt deliver the payloads as thier american counterparts could.


Who had the better air craft- US
Why?- Earlier in the war 39-43 Germany had the advantages in numbers of aircraft, and the Folk wolf aircraft was thier best fighter of the war.
But in the long run compared to the US, the Mustang was a fair supior aircraft, in speed and manvablity.


Tanks-
German had the best tanks hands down, both in armor and firepower (88mm tiger owned)

However what they lacked were numbers and reliablity, against the US, and russians they couldnt compete. Russians were using the T34 as thier primary tank which was a American design manufactured in mass numbers in Siberia in Russia. It was very quick compared to the germans and had good fire power for its size.

Same goes for the Shermans, however the shermans had horrible armor compared to the german tanks, and they lite up like a match box if they got hit.


Field Guns-
German 88mm Field gun was the best gun in the war.
Why?
1. Range
2.Firepower
3.All purpose gun, AA,AI,AT you name it, it couldnt kill it

So yea hope that clears up some stuff for you guys, i would type more but i think i got my point accross.

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by Spaxspore

(please forgive any spelling/grammer mistakes)
OK i have to jump in here about the german tools of ww2. Yes they did have some pretty advanced weapons compared to the allies in the early years of the war 39-42

But once america joined in thier advances in certain areas were not so proment.

First, lets compare infantry weapons.

Main field infantry weapon of the US(rifle)
-M1 Grande .30-06 Semi auto 8 round emi-block clip

Main Field infantry weapon of the German Army (rifle)
-8mm K98k bolt action w/ 5 round internal mag.

I own both of these weapons and shot both weekly at my local firing range. The M1 grande is a supior weapon

why?

1.30-06 is a more powerful then the 8mm, higher velocity and better stopping power
2.You can fire 8 rounds and reload with the ingenius block clip 10 times faster then u can with a k98k using bolt action and a stripper clip


Main sub machine gun US- Thompson/Grease Gun

Main Sub Machine Gun Ger- MP40

.45acp owns a 9mm... trust me
Stoping power and higher cailber


Main Pistol US- Colt cailber .45 semi Auto 1911

Main Pistol Ger- Walther p38, Luger 9mm

same reason as above, stoping power and higher cailber
I own both btw (p38/1911)

As for machine guns, i would take a mg42 over a 30cal browning just because the mg42 had proven its self to be the best ww2 machine gun of the war.


Now off to the aircraft

Who had the better bombers= US
WHy?- Germany had no true hvy bomber. Thus it couldnt deliver the payloads as thier american counterparts could.


Who had the better air craft- US
Why?- Earlier in the war 39-43 Germany had the advantages in numbers of aircraft, and the Folk wolf aircraft was thier best fighter of the war.
But in the long run compared to the US, the Mustang was a fair supior aircraft, in speed and manvablity.


Tanks-
German had the best tanks hands down, both in armor and firepower (88mm tiger owned)

However what they lacked were numbers and reliablity, against the US, and russians they couldnt compete. Russians were using the T34 as thier primary tank which was a American design manufactured in mass numbers in Siberia in Russia. It was very quick compared to the germans and had good fire power for its size.

Same goes for the Shermans, however the shermans had horrible armor compared to the german tanks, and they lite up like a match box if they got hit.


Field Guns-
German 88mm Field gun was the best gun in the war.
Why?
1. Range
2.Firepower
3.All purpose gun, AA,AI,AT you name it, it couldnt kill it

So yea hope that clears up some stuff for you guys, i would type more but i think i got my point accross.

Good points, but my favorite is the Thermal Nuclear Warhead:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[rcs929]

For me it's about playing out a scenario using the equipment & not the politics or the regime's ideology. The Uboat side offers the most regarding the progression from TypeII's to Type XXI's. Also how the war from the German prospective goes from easy mode to very difficult to survive.

When I play battlefield 1942 (battlegroup 42 mod) and I play the Germans it's for the defensive or offensive scenario (depending on map) and the equipment. The Germans had some real nice motorized equipment etc.

[Lovro]

Germans didnt use the same tactics than US. They built their squad tactics around MG42 (which is still used today in a lot of armed forces- MG3) so Kar98 sufficed, US had a diffrent approach so they needed better rifles. And WW2 mauser rifles are even today still used because of their supreme accuracy
And you forgot the Mp44 world's first assault rifle.

But you could say allies cougt germany in later years of the war in terms of technology but the thing is germany allready had new generation of superior weapons prepared by then (Me262 first jet fighter, V2, Mp44, XXI u-boat, air to air heat seeking missiles, new genaration of tanks...) but because of allied bombing raids these weapons were never produced as much as they were ment too.

On an aside, the reasons the US didn't deploy a bigger tank, was because the railway tunnels to get the thing to the coastline from Detroit woudn't admit anything bigger. They could have widened the tunnels, but it would have taken years to do, and when every tank you had was being badly needed....


Back on topic: I am an American, of German descent; my family has been in the States for at least a hundred years (that I know of). Both my grandfathers fought in WWII (one as a fighter pilot on the Asian theater; the other as a B-24 pilot in Europe).

More to the point: I suppose it's possible I have relatives in Germany, at least distant ones. I am not my ancestors; I am not responsible for anyone's conduct but my own. And sometimes not even then. I have been a soldier, and I know, as a soldier, you do not get the luxury of deciding whether you're going to go to work today or not. The Nuremburg trials were wrong: following orders can be a valid reason. Concentration camps... no. That was a clear humanitarian violation, and should have been refused. Thing is... incredible pressure can be brought to bear to get people to do things they might not otherwise have done, especially with an authoritarian gov't with no checks on its power. I do not deny the Holocaust; it was a very, very horrible episode in human history. But the German soldiers on the lines, in the skies and seas, had very little (if anything) to do with this. And so I have no ethical problem playing the part of one of those soldiers, or sailors. Just like an actor playing the part of Adolf Hitler.

[gabeeg]

This is a very intersting thread. I like, most others have no problem playing the German side, especially in a sub, or flight sim. For what ever reason, I would prefer to play an Allied soldier in a ground action game but would not have a moral problem playing on the German side. Now that said, I was sitting here thinking how I would feel playing a Japanese sub commander, pilot or infantry...and I do feel a bit differently. I do not think I would be as comfortable playing from the Japanese side, and I am not exactly sure why that is.

I think it may be that I see the Japanese in WWII as brutal even at the individual level. I have questioned myself as to whether this is some undercurrent of racism that I was not aware of....but I don't think so. I harbor no ill will towards the Japanese and would gladly play a Japanese American infantry man (the 100th and 442nd were under appreciated units and would love to see them featured in a WWII game!). I just do not see the general German military man in this light, though I am aware that even in the German Navy there were plenty of individuals and captains even outside the SS that totally bought into Hilters extreme views (Forgot where I was reading this...and forgot which captain but I as reading a speech he had given his men and he was quite outspoken on his feelings towards the Jewish menace) I think the majority did not.

It may also have a lot to do with the fact that my relatives that served in Europe came back alive and those that served in the Pacific died (two great uncles...one died on a Hell Ship torped by a US sub and one on the Bataan death march).

Still not quite sure...


In honest truth the one thing I have the most problems with is playing a female character...I just cannot do it...not sure what that means

[Spaxspore]

Originally Posted by Lovro

Germans didnt use the same tactics than US. They built their squad tactics around MG42 (which is still used today in a lot of armed forces- MG3) so Kar98 sufficed, US had a diffrent approach so they needed better rifles. And WW2 mauser rifles are even today still used because of their supreme accuracy
And you forgot the Mp44 world's first assault rifle.

But you could say allies cougt germany in later years of the war in terms of technology but the thing is germany allready had new generation of superior weapons prepared by then (Me262 first jet fighter, V2, Mp44, XXI u-boat, air to air heat seeking missiles, new genaration of tanks...) but because of allied bombing raids these weapons were never produced as much as they were ment too.

I didnt forgot about the mp44, but considering it came out mid to late 44, it didnt really make a difference. By that time germany was about done...
Yes the k98k is accurate, but the m1 grande is also very accurate @ 100yds+, and the US forces used the same type of tactics, fire and manuver. Using the 30cal browning light machine gun.

[sordid]

Wow!
That's some great reading I received here.
Thanks a lot for sharing all these thoughts.
I'm going out for dinner with my wife now, but I will get back to some of you tomorrow.

[THE_MASK]

I play SH3 because its a great game and it doesnt bother me playing the german side . Japs though , i dont know .

[Cerberus]

Originally Posted by Spaxspore

First, lets compare infantry weapons.


Now off to the aircraft




Tanks-



Field Guns-

I've snipped a reasoned comparison of some US & German weapons used in WWII.

The other overwhelming difference is that the US had an enormous industrial base making these weapons which entirely outside the theatre of war - no bombed factories, railways, roads.

The finest weapons are no use if you can't make them & deliver them if sufficient quantity.

[rjcjunior]

think about it:

play with one nihon kaigun sub, one the monster jap sub... it will be fun!!

Units3 (none survived) ShipsI-9, I-10, I-11 Year(s) Completed 1941-1942 Displacement2,919 tons / 4,149 tons Dimensions 372.8 ft x 31.3 ft x 17.5 ft Machinery 2 diesels: 12,400 hp electric motors: 2,400 hp
Speed23.5 knots / 8 knots Range16,000 nm @ 16 knots Armament 6x533mm TT fwd + 1x14cm/50 cal. (18 Torpedoes) + one seaplane. Max. Depth100 m (330 feet) Crew114 officers and men

Yeeaaahhhh

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by sordid

First of all - if you find something I write offending, this might be due to my poor command of the English language. So when in doubt, before getting angry, simply ask what I actually meant.
I am a German citizen, born in 1975.
After this disclaimer now for my actual question:
Why do so many people here obviously enjoy taking the role of a German soldier during WWII and what are your feelings towards this rather delicate detail?
Having read this forum for the last few days almost excessively, I am absolutely sure that the vast majority of players here is aware of the German history, at least concerning the Third Reich.
When reading forums that deal with landbased warfare games, you easily get the impression that many people, especially Americans, would absolutely refuse to play as a German soldier. Now this is a pretty hard contrast to the enthusiasm I see in many fellow subcommanders here on this board.
I can imagine a few reasons for this.
Naval units, in opposite to army members, were never going toe to toe with their opponents. Hardly any visible blood, no guts flying around.
The navy was not corrupted by massacres against civilians, opposed to army soldiers.
But on the other hand, they were sinking ships full of civilians and their enormous success especially in the earlier days of the war was a pretty important factor why Hitler was able to maintain power that long and bring his wrath and destruction over the whole continent (and beyond), resulting in over 50,000,000 people dead and another 35,000,000 wounded - not to mention the tragedy of the Holocaust.
Now how do you justify playing as a member of the German navy to yourself?
Do you think the same way I do? In PC games, I personally don't care who is getting killed by whom since it's only a PC game and I am extremely fascinated by mastering the technical and navigational challenges as well as setting up traps for "enemy" escorts.
Or does anybody have a completely different approach towards this?
Well - I'm just curious!
Take care!

Excellent questions. Imo, a LOT of players play the German side in any WW2 game because they think one or more of the following:

- the German military was actually the best at the time, etc.
- the German arms were the best/sexiest toys to play with, etc.
- German military arm (insert branch name here) was actually not pro-Nazi, etc., so that branch is "ok" to simulate.

I don't subscribe/agree with these lines of thought myself, but many do. No big deal.

[stabiz]

So you disagree?

Do you play SH3?

[IrishUboot]

If I may shake off the reins of political correctness and the great shame that is self censorship, I have no qualms playing a subsim as a Kriegsmarine sub commander nor do I find the imposed German guilt complex at all endearing. Whatever your political or historical opinions, the second war happened for many reasons, and is unquestionably too complex a subject for discussion in this forum. Something my history teacher told me at a young age has always stuck; that it is the victor who writes history. Never has this been more true than in the aftermath of the war. It has led us to this position of an unchallengeable version of history, free from proper historical debate.

Five years ago, I left my study of history behind to read the law. Maybe it helps explain my approach to such issues. I like to take history with an open mind, weighing the facts, analyzing events, details, motives and opinions as any lawyer should. Being Irish and growing up during the Troubles, I've also experienced first hand the nature of conflict in the knowledge that those who wield the power of the pen can write history in such a way as to make it palatable for their intended audience.

Maybe it's time we pulled off the blinkers and allowed historians and political commentators to do their job. I'm just throwing my two cents in, for what it's worth.

[Max Peck]

Originally Posted by STEED

Sordid, I have no problem playing WW2 Sims, after all it's not real. OK, they are based on actual events of WW2 and some people may find that offencive but I think that's a little over the top. And at the end of the day it's only a game.

Nail, meet head....

Steed has it absoulutely correct, its only a game.