Some moral questions by a German...

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by sordid

Now how do you justify playing as a member of the German navy to yourself?
Do you think the same way I do? In PC games, I personally don't care who is getting killed by whom since it's only a PC game and I am extremely fascinated by mastering the technical and navigational challenges as well as setting up traps for "enemy" escorts.
Or does anybody have a completely different approach towards this?
Well - I'm just curious!
Take care!

I play because i like submarines thats it really. If SH3 was a Japanese campaign i would think no different in playing it. And also the thrill of playing the bad guys makes the game more interesting. For instance how many First person shooters do you come across where you can get to be the germans, for example Call of Duty 1 & 2 you played as allies only, Vietcong 2 you play as US but you got to play as the Vietcong in a short campaign which was a better campaign out of the two. Theirs not many games where you can be a german soldier and see his side of the story. I think developers dont want to go down that road yet they should.

I would like to see a First Person Shooter where you played as the "Waffen SS Hitlers Black Guard" Yet they made the gameplay character slowly change thoughout the game, although these black guards were like robots that obeyed all orders no matter how gruesome they might be, your character you played through out the game slowly realised what he had got himself into. He had emotions - questioning his role as a SS, etc., He might be ordered to take out a whole polish village, with emotions running high you got choices to either shoot them all or let em go etc., And the ending was the cliff hanger, you died refusing a order. And it left you feeling worn out once finsihed. The game really hit your emotions. I would like to see that in a game. I mean if they can bring out games where you play as a gang member (GTA San Adreas) and run over ppl, beat ppl up including females, shoot civilians etc., then why not a game such as mentioned?

Anyways being able to play as the germans and in uboats is blardy brilliant!

[Redwine]

Well... how to explain in bad english....

Do not confuse german warriors with nazis... too much of them fight to protect their women and childs not for the Fuerer.

The german submarine forces rise up respect and admiration, for the sacrifice and the troubles they must to overpass to defend their country.

Their courage rise up respect on many people.

Personally i like submarine simulation, so i enjoy to play SH3 the same as SH1. I dont hate americans or british or japanese.

Puting at side some isolated cases of german and americans shooting survivors, their develope their job with courage and honor.

Many captains has onboard "political marshalls" because they was not considered "trusted" by nazis.

Sadly with this F@#$% WXP i cant play any more SH1 .
I cant believe why a XP installation is not released !

Will be good to have SH4 where we can choice american or japanese side.

War is a hell, but sadly is near to a "natural humanity condition" from we live into a cave. It is just part of reality, you like it or not.

I think so... the german campaign of the Alantic, and the american/japanese campaign of the Pacific are an example for future warriors of any country, disregarding politics flags....

[Spaxspore]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Well... how to explain in bad english....

Do not confuse german warriors with nazis... too much of them fight to protect their women and childs not for the Fuerer.

The german submarine forces rise up respect and admiration, for the sacrifice and the troubles they must to overpass to defend their country.

Their courage rise up respect on many people.

Exactly what i was going to say, dont confuse the SS/NAZIs with the regular german army/airforce/navy. In fact as early as 1939 german army generals planned on assasinating hitler, however due to his victories he was to popular at the time. They tried later in 1944 and failed, a couple of the generals commited sucide, Rommel was among the ones who ploted and was basically forced to commit sucide to protect his family.

So no i dont think all germans who particpated in WW2, knew or particapted in the death camps ect. If they did it was proably just whispered rummors. Heck people living in towns/cities less then 5miles away say (dont know if they were telling the truth or not) that they never knew of the camps.

From Wikipedia
"The plot against Hitler


May 1944, Rommel (right) with his closest staff members: (L to R), his personal aide Captain Hellmuth Lang, his chief naval aide Admiral Friedrich Ruge, and his chief of staff General Hans Speidel, all of whom were heavily involved in the anti-Nazi conspiracy within the Wehrmacht.



A memorial at the site of Field Marshall Erwin Rommel's suicide outside of the town of Herrlingen, Baden-Württemberg, Germany (west of Ulm).


On July 17, 1944 Rommel's staff car was strafed by an RCAF Spitfire (piloted by Charley Fox), and he was hospitalized with major head injuries. (However, Rommel always maintained that the aircraft had been American) In the meantime, after the failed July 20 Plot against Adolf Hitler a major crackdown was conducted throughout the Wehrmacht. As the investigation proceeded, numerous connections started appearing that tied Rommel with the conspiracy, in which many of his closest aides were deeply involved. At the same time, local Nazi party officials reported on Rommel's extensive and scornful criticism of Nazi leadership during the time he was hospitalized. Bormann was certain of Rommel's involvement, Goebbels was not.
The true extent of Rommel's knowledge of, or involvement with, the plot is still unclear. After the war, however, his wife maintained that Rommel had been against the plot as it was carried out. It has been stated that Rommel wanted to avoid giving future generations of Germans the perception that the war was lost because of backstabbing, the infamous Dolchstoßlegende, as it was commonly believed by some Germans following WWI. Instead, he favored a coup where Hitler would be taken alive and made to stand trial before the public.
Recent evidence however, seems to indicate that Rommel was aware of the July 20 plot and the intentions of Claus von Stauffenberg but was cautious to avoid participation not merely because of the chance of repeating the 'November Criminals' fable. He was all too aware of the crudity and poorly organised nature of the plot, and the slim chance of the Western Allies accepting a separate peace. He thus took an objective and realistic attitude towards the planned coup against Hitler and his cabinet, though for all his forbearance and cautious nature he still fell foul of Hitler's growing paranoia and petty hatred towards the Prussian officer caste. It was even reported that shortly after Rommel regained consciousness following his accident that he confided to his son in private "Stauffenberg botched his plans, but a front line officer would have finished Hitler off".
Because of Rommel's popularity with the German people, Hitler gave him an option to commit suicide with cyanide or face a humiliating sham trial before Roland Freisler's "People's Court" and the murder of his family and staff. Rommel ended his own life on October 14, 1944, and was buried with full military honours. After the war his diary was published as The Rommel Papers. He is the only member of the Third Reich establishment to have a museum dedicated to his person and his career. His grave can be found in Herrlingen, a short distance west of Ulm."

[slow_n_ez]

It really doesn't matter to me what side of a game I play on ... I try to engross myself in the role I find myself playing and in this case a Kaptain of a U-Boat following orders from my commander ..... Everytime I sink a ship weather a merchant or a warship I always watch and hope that everyone made it in the water or at least a life raft and didn't go down with the ship .... I am out to destroy the enemy's infastructure not kill people , however , I know some die at first torpedo impact ...............


edit:
@ Redwine > http://www.subsowespac.org/sh_xp/silent_hunterxp.shtml

[Lovro]

I dont realy care which side I am playing- but I enjoy german side bacause it it so rare in PC gaming- there are 10000 games where you are the "hero" fighting against the evil nazi germans. I realy hate the kind of games which portrait the common german grunt as a bloodthisty animal. In fact any war game/movie where one side is just bad. In reality there wasnt a big diffrence betwen US soldier or a german one. They both fought for their country because they were told to. The diffrence was in the leadership and their plans where it is clear who was the aggresor but looking it the other way the gratest people in history could also be portrait similar to hitler- Caesar, Alexander the great, Napoleon which all tryed to counquer the world. In their time zhey were hated by their foes who crushed them but in time history forgets this things and they are now remembered as great. I'm not saying hitler was great (expecially with his racial crap) but you'll see that with time public oppinion of him will rise in fact it is allready if you take a closer look.
BTW our country fought against him.

[STEED]

Sordid, I have no problem playing WW2 Sims, after all it's not real. OK, they are based on actual events of WW2 and some people may find that offencive but I think that's a little over the top. And at the end of the day it's only a game.

[The Noob]

Hello sordid.

First of all, Hallo Landsmann. Alles Leiwand? (Styrian Here. Yeah, your German, but WTH).

And now, on Topic:

I play Germans. In WW2 games. To Land, Sea, and Air. And, as a side note, i'm Communist. Still i have no moral problems. Why? Because i don't play a Nazi, i play a normal soldier.
There is no game were you Play a "True Nazi". And thats a Good thing.

And, (Yeah i know that was postet like 20 times already) it's just a Game.

I am with Lovro in this matter.
I don't want to get Anti-American again, but it is just lame to play the American-Super-Hero for the 1000 time. Well, maybe not for Americans....

Give me Ruskies or Krauts for a change and i'm Pleased. At least in 1 Game per Year...

My Opinion.

[rcs929]

For me it's about playing out a scenario using the equipment & not the politics or the regime's ideology. The Uboat side offers the most regarding the progression from TypeII's to Type XXI's. Also how the war from the German prospective goes from easy mode to very difficult to survive.

When I play battlefield 1942 (battlegroup 42 mod) and I play the Germans it's for the defensive or offensive scenario (depending on map) and the equipment. The Germans had some real nice motorized equipment etc.

On an aside, the reasons the US didn't deploy a bigger tank, was because the railway tunnels to get the thing to the coastline from Detroit woudn't admit anything bigger. They could have widened the tunnels, but it would have taken years to do, and when every tank you had was being badly needed....


Back on topic: I am an American, of German descent; my family has been in the States for at least a hundred years (that I know of). Both my grandfathers fought in WWII (one as a fighter pilot on the Asian theater; the other as a B-24 pilot in Europe).

More to the point: I suppose it's possible I have relatives in Germany, at least distant ones. I am not my ancestors; I am not responsible for anyone's conduct but my own. And sometimes not even then. I have been a soldier, and I know, as a soldier, you do not get the luxury of deciding whether you're going to go to work today or not. The Nuremburg trials were wrong: following orders can be a valid reason. Concentration camps... no. That was a clear humanitarian violation, and should have been refused. Thing is... incredible pressure can be brought to bear to get people to do things they might not otherwise have done, especially with an authoritarian gov't with no checks on its power. I do not deny the Holocaust; it was a very, very horrible episode in human history. But the German soldiers on the lines, in the skies and seas, had very little (if anything) to do with this. And so I have no ethical problem playing the part of one of those soldiers, or sailors. Just like an actor playing the part of Adolf Hitler.

[gabeeg]

This is a very intersting thread. I like, most others have no problem playing the German side, especially in a sub, or flight sim. For what ever reason, I would prefer to play an Allied soldier in a ground action game but would not have a moral problem playing on the German side. Now that said, I was sitting here thinking how I would feel playing a Japanese sub commander, pilot or infantry...and I do feel a bit differently. I do not think I would be as comfortable playing from the Japanese side, and I am not exactly sure why that is.

I think it may be that I see the Japanese in WWII as brutal even at the individual level. I have questioned myself as to whether this is some undercurrent of racism that I was not aware of....but I don't think so. I harbor no ill will towards the Japanese and would gladly play a Japanese American infantry man (the 100th and 442nd were under appreciated units and would love to see them featured in a WWII game!). I just do not see the general German military man in this light, though I am aware that even in the German Navy there were plenty of individuals and captains even outside the SS that totally bought into Hilters extreme views (Forgot where I was reading this...and forgot which captain but I as reading a speech he had given his men and he was quite outspoken on his feelings towards the Jewish menace) I think the majority did not.

It may also have a lot to do with the fact that my relatives that served in Europe came back alive and those that served in the Pacific died (two great uncles...one died on a Hell Ship torped by a US sub and one on the Bataan death march).

Still not quite sure...


In honest truth the one thing I have the most problems with is playing a female character...I just cannot do it...not sure what that means

[THE_MASK]

I play SH3 because its a great game and it doesnt bother me playing the german side . Japs though , i dont know .

[rjcjunior]

think about it:

play with one nihon kaigun sub, one the monster jap sub... it will be fun!!

Units3 (none survived) ShipsI-9, I-10, I-11 Year(s) Completed 1941-1942 Displacement2,919 tons / 4,149 tons Dimensions 372.8 ft x 31.3 ft x 17.5 ft Machinery 2 diesels: 12,400 hp electric motors: 2,400 hp
Speed23.5 knots / 8 knots Range16,000 nm @ 16 knots Armament 6x533mm TT fwd + 1x14cm/50 cal. (18 Torpedoes) + one seaplane. Max. Depth100 m (330 feet) Crew114 officers and men

Yeeaaahhhh

[Gizzmoe]

FYI, I´ve deleted all off-topic posts, the thread derailed too much...

[Max Peck]

Originally Posted by STEED

Sordid, I have no problem playing WW2 Sims, after all it's not real. OK, they are based on actual events of WW2 and some people may find that offencive but I think that's a little over the top. And at the end of the day it's only a game.

Nail, meet head....

Steed has it absoulutely correct, its only a game.

[irish1958]

This is a very interesting multinational discussion. I am an American of Irish descent on both my mother's and my father's side. During the war I was confused at the dinner table with the discussions. Every one was very Anti-British and hoped they would be pounded, and yet the American Press and sentiment was Anti-German. How could both sides be bad? How could America fight on the side of the British after what they did to the Irish? What were the Germans doing to the Jews?
At church, we were told that was bad.
As a child I was so confused I just wanted to play baseball.
61 years is a long time, as is 85 years ago. I wasn't responsible for what happened then or for who did what to whom.
SHIII is a fantasy. I can be a kaleun and command a crew to attempt to serve my country. What is wrong with that?