Allied Air Force vs. Submarine

[Hooston]

Looks like the Tse-Tse is in the new GWX Knights Cross edition. Never seen one, but it is in the game data files.
There was a bug for a long time where aircraft at some crew competence levels would not drop bombs on the first pass. The Tse-tse would certainly end that get out of jail option!
In real life rockets were found to be more versatile than big cannons so Tse-tse's were quite rare (wikipedia says 18 were built). One did shoot the engine off a Ju88 once!

[Captain Drastic]

There is a mod in the gameplay downloads section of the Silent Hunter III site called "MyBulletsCannotSinkSub.zip (3.6 KB)". I don't' use it for some reason, maybe I tested it and found the CTD mentioned in the comments of the download section. It sounds interesting and comes with very informative documentation, which is worth having just for that. However, upon further research I found a "Shells_ZON" file in the "HSIE Hardcode Patch 4C" which I already use, and it seems to do the same thing as the "MyBulletsCannotSinkSub" mod without the possible CTD. I recommend using the HSIE Hardcode Patch 4C anyway, as a must-have feature.

[Navigator777]

Originally Posted by Captain Drastic

There is a mod in the gameplay downloads section of the Silent Hunter III site called "MyBulletsCannotSinkSub.zip (3.6 KB)". I don't' use it for some reason, maybe I tested it and found the CTD mentioned in the comments of the download section. It sounds interesting and comes with very informative documentation, which is worth having just for that. However, upon further research I found a "Shells_ZON" file in the "HSIE Hardcode Patch 4C" which I already use, and it seems to do the same thing as the "MyBulletsCannotSinkSub" mod without the possible CTD. I recommend using the HSIE Hardcode Patch 4C anyway, as a must-have feature.

I installed the "MyBulletsKannot" mod, but as soon as the plane attacks and the first machine gun bullets hit the submarine's strong hull, the game immediately crashes. Perhaps some mods are not compatible with this mod. Therefore, I removed it from the game build for now. I installed mods that increase the power of anti-aircraft weapons and it turns out to fight off attacks and shoot down planes, due to which they no longer destroy the submarine's hull as much. I haven't tried the second option you suggested yet. If I find it and it suits me, I'll try it. Thanks for the recommendations!

[Navigator777]

Originally Posted by Hooston

Looks like the Tse-Tse is in the new GWX Knights Cross edition. Never seen one, but it is in the game data files.
There was a bug for a long time where aircraft at some crew competence levels would not drop bombs on the first pass. The Tse-tse would certainly end that get out of jail option!
In real life rockets were found to be more versatile than big cannons so Tse-tse's were quite rare (wikipedia says 18 were built). One did shoot the engine off a Ju88 once!

In my opinion, anti-aircraft fire from a submarine prevents aircraft from aiming accurately and they do not drop bombs and only fire from machine guns. If you start to dive, then nothing interferes with the aircraft and they begin an attack with bombs. Under anti-aircraft fire, if aircraft do carry out bombing, then the probability of a miss and inaccuracy of this will be higher. By the way, I asked chatGPT about 57 mm guns and he answered that U-976 was sunk from such guns in March 1944. I looked on the uboat. net website about this boat. It says there that the U-976 boat was sunk on March 25, 1944 in the Bay of Biscay southwest of Saint-Nazaire by fire from two British Mosquito aircraft. It is not specified whether they were armed with guns.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Navigator777

In my opinion, anti-aircraft fire from a submarine prevents aircraft from aiming accurately and they do not drop bombs and only fire from machine guns. If you start to dive, then nothing interferes with the aircraft and they begin an attack with bombs. Under anti-aircraft fire, if aircraft do carry out bombing, then the probability of a miss and inaccuracy of this will be higher. By the way, I asked chatGPT about 57 mm guns and he answered that U-976 was sunk from such guns in March 1944. I looked on the uboat. net website about this boat. It says there that the U-976 boat was sunk on March 25, 1944 in the Bay of Biscay southwest of Saint-Nazaire by fire from two British Mosquito aircraft. It is not specified whether they were armed with guns.

Aircraft AI is bare bone basic in SH3 and we cant even fix the stupidly steep attack angle of their attacking dive - E.g every plane with 'dive bomber' characteristics dives like Stuka, Even the sunderlands, where as in IRL that thing could barley even take off, let alone recover from a 45 degree dive at low alitude! :P Only othe roption is 'level bomber' mode, but then they bomb your boat in the same way they would carpet bomb a factory in Berlin - which is even more stupid.
There is certainly no way put off their aim by shooting at them, they just aint smart or sophisticated enough for any of that and they often dont even value their own self preservation that much, undeterred by AAA and merrily flying in to mountains. Also when SH3 planes run out of bombs (or dummy bombs) they often just enter a controlled but suicidal decending death sprial in to the sea. So yeah... we can only expect so much from them.


Biggest factor in Uboat Vs Aircraft combat in SH3 is your speed. if you are going at ahead flank, the plane will struggle to get its bombs on target, but likewise, your own AAA crew will struggle to land hits on it. Go slow or all stop, and you are both much, much eaiser targets for each other.
Also if an aircraft bombs you from your Aft, They are far more deadly and score multiple hits along the length of your boats hull, rather than just one - potentially ending you in a single pass. so if you see a plane coming in for a run on your 180, it would be very wise to make a turn.

[Captain Drastic]

You are right about the steep angles of aircraft AI, I have asked before if anyone had a fix. It looks dumb when they do a steep climb and dive just to turn.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Captain Drastic

You are right about the steep angles of aircraft AI, I have asked before if anyone had a fix. It looks dumb when they do a steep climb and dive just to turn.

Yeah it sucks, sadly not possible to edit

[Hooston]

Originally Posted by Navigator777

It says there that the U-976 boat was sunk on March 25, 1944 in the Bay of Biscay southwest of Saint-Nazaire by fire from two British Mosquito aircraft. It is not specified whether they were armed with guns.

AI finds text on the internet matching your question, combines it with your question and spits it back at you. It has no real understanding or knowledge, no quality control, and makes stuff up to fill in gaps. Which is what makes it seem human I guess!!! Wikipedia says U-976 was bitten by a mkXVIII Tse-tse, and includes a proper reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito. ...I wonder how much of Wikipedia is being edited by AI! We really are living in a post-truth age.
I'm not sure about 20mm cannon. Although there was an "armour piercing incendiary" round I think this was more designed for thin aluminium aircraft armour and would struggle against 18.5mm high tensile steel. The British must have developed the Tse-tse for a reason! I'd be interested in any hard data. I read an account of a British Cromwell tank that was shot at by a German 20mm flak and all the rounds stuck in the armour instead of bouncing off. It turned out the crew had been given a mild steel training tank by mistake. They decided to keep it because it was a lot faster than the rest of the troop.

Your regular Mosquito FB mkVI, and the Beaufighter had four 20mm cannon which would certainly make a hell of a mess of everything outside the pressure hull. The U-Flak boat U-441 got a good working over from 3 Beaufighters which killed 10 men and wounded 13. However despite this the boat was able to dive away and made it back to port under the command of the boat's doctor https://uboat.net/boats/u441.htm.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Hooston

AI finds text on the internet matching your question, combines it with your question and spits it back at you. It has no real understanding or knowledge, no quality control, and makes stuff up to fill in gaps. Which is what makes it seem human I guess!!! Wikipedia says U-976 was bitten by a mkXVIII Tse-tse, and includes a proper reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito. ...I wonder how much of Wikipedia is being edited by AI! We really are living in a post-truth age.
I'm not sure about 20mm cannon. Although there was an "armour piercing incendiary" round I think this was more designed for thin aluminium aircraft armour and would struggle against 18.5mm high tensile steel. The British must have developed the Tse-tse for a reason! I'd be interested in any hard data. I read an account of a British Cromwell tank that was shot at by a German 20mm flak and all the rounds stuck in the armour instead of bouncing off. It turned out the crew had been given a mild steel training tank by mistake. They decided to keep it because it was a lot faster than the rest of the troop.

Your regular Mosquito FB mkVI, and the Beaufighter had four 20mm cannon which would certainly make a hell of a mess of everything outside the pressure hull. The U-Flak boat U-441 got a good working over from 3 Beaufighters which killed 10 men and wounded 13. However despite this the boat was able to dive away and made it back to port under the command of the boat's doctor https://uboat.net/boats/u441.htm.

AI just does the same as what you or I do with Google/Site searches and comparing different results - just faster and with out too much scrutiny or predjudice. But yeah, its still at the mercy of the source info being wrong, as are we, so not a huge difference really. In some cases it might even be advantageous as its less likley to dismiss 'a truth' based on its own stupid political bias/ emotionally driven narrative which many humans relegiously adhere to. At least that what the term 'post truth' means to me alot of the time: 'It must be true if it confirms what I already believed' and 'its cant be true if it makes me feel uncomfortable.' Maybe the term should swapped for 'Post adult'.

Anyway, Im ranting...
According to Uboat.net (if they are to be belived) the pressure hull was typically 18mm thick steel, so I guess we just need to know if a 20mm Hispano could penetrate 18mm of steel, if yes then there is your answer if you want to look. Personally Im already quite satistfied I have read enough to suggest it could (within a set of variables, attack angle, range, ammo type etc). Also in the case of something like the Beaufighter or Mosquito which had 4 cannons, keep in mind those guns were set to converge at a certain range, like 400-600 meters, so 4x 20mm concentrated at one spot is going hurt more than a single 20mm gun.

[Hooston]

Well i found a useful source and the answer is YES... but NO.... but YES.... but maybe.
See
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...kets&Itemid=60


The HE and ball ammo would not cut it. So NO
The armour piercing round (many flavours used!) would penetrate around 20mm of armour plate at 200yds at 0 degrees incidence. So YES
Most attacks would have to be at a shallow dive angle and I'd guess around 3-400 yds. For shallow incidence shots there's not a lot of difference between armour plate and high tensile steel and the penetration drops off (reference only goes up to 40 degree incidence). The thin deck plates would also get in the way a bit. So NO, but YES against conning towers and the thin unpressurised saddle tanks. Some boats had added armour on the conning towers (I guess for this reason).
Seems to me that you should incur a lot of damage to deck crew, guns, periscopes and deck plates, a bit of damage to the conning tower and a slight nibble at the hull integrity (never enough to sink the boat).
Looks like we are not too far off!

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Hooston

Well i found a useful source and the answer is YES... but NO.... but YES.... but maybe.
See
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...kets&Itemid=60


The HE and ball ammo would not cut it. So NO
The armour piercing round (many flavours used!) would penetrate around 20mm of armour plate at 200yds at 0 degrees incidence. So YES
Most attacks would have to be at a shallow dive angle and I'd guess around 3-400 yds. For shallow incidence shots there's not a lot of difference between armour plate and high tensile steel and the penetration drops off (reference only goes up to 40 degree incidence). The thin deck plates would also get in the way a bit. So NO, but YES against conning towers and the thin unpressurised saddle tanks. Some boats had added armour on the conning towers (I guess for this reason).
Seems to me that you should incur a lot of damage to deck crew, guns, periscopes and deck plates, a bit of damage to the conning tower and a slight nibble at the hull integrity (never enough to sink the boat).
Looks like we are not too far off!

Ha, nice find, well I say let the planes a little charitable wiggle room on the power of their 20mm - to compensate for their overall stupidity, predictability, massivley easy detection, inability to shoot fixed guns at all at certain attack angles and pretty poor bomb accuracy. when you factor all that in, what's a little damage buff to their cannons? And TBH if I fight them rather than evade, well maybe I deserve the hull integrity of a collander

[Hooston]

Originally Posted by JU_88

And TBH if I fight them rather than evade, well maybe I deserve the hull integrity of a collander

Yeah, it's not really important given the limitations baked into the game's damage model. The important thing is to discourage players from unrealistically fighting it out on the surface against cannon armed fighters, whilst not having boats behaving realistically sunk by strafing (other than Tse-tse). I think that's where GWX KC is at.

[Navigator777]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Ha, nice find, well I say let the planes a little charitable wiggle room on the power of their 20mm - to compensate for their overall stupidity, predictability, massivley easy detection, inability to shoot fixed guns at all at certain attack angles and pretty poor bomb accuracy. when you factor all that in, what's a little damage buff to their cannons? And TBH if I fight them rather than evade, well maybe I deserve the hull integrity of a collander

I asked chatGPT for statistics and numbers about losses and this is what I got:

The exact number of attacks where aircraft actually detected and attacked a submarine varies by source, but approximately 2,500-3,000 attacks were recorded during World War II.

Breakdown by year (approximate data):
1942 - about 500 attacks, as aircraft were not yet that effective.

1943 - the peak of combat, about 1,000-1,500 attacks, due to improved detection technology.

1944-1945 - about 700-1,000 attacks, as submarines began to avoid surface navigation due to the threat of aircraft.

Not every attack resulted in a sinking:

On average, only 10-15% of attacks ended in the sinking of the submarine.

Another 20-30% caused serious damage, forcing the submarine to abort the mission.

The remaining 50-70% of attacks either did not cause critical damage, or the attack was unsuccessful (the submarine managed to go under water).

Reasons for unsuccessful attacks:
Weather conditions - poor visibility and rough seas interfered with aiming.

Submarine maneuvers - sharp turns and emergency diving.

Aiming problems - depth charges often exploded either too early or too late.

Anti-aircraft fire - submarines could sometimes repel an attack, especially in 1943-1944, when they began to be armed with 20-37 mm anti-aircraft guns.

Thus, out of approximately 15,000 submarine-hunting sorties, approximately 2,500–3,000 ended in attacks, and approximately 300–350 submarines were sunk (success rate ~10–15%).