[Politics] Who was the IDF aiming at ?

[Fish]

I don't know wasn't there.
But what benefit do you think they have from such a thing as bombing a UN post deliberately? :hmm:

[Linton]

Bombing and striking a UN post will get them reported all over the world except probably the USA as the latter is anti-UN anyway!Who is dictating policy in Israel as the militairy seem to be in the prosecuting with extreme prejudice mould with no political handbrake to stop them!!I always thought that the IDF were one of the more professional armies in the world which begs me to ask the questions,who is in control and what do they hope to achieve in this current conflict?

Accidents do occur. BTW the U.S. is slow walking the resolution to the conflict. But so is every other country, even the Mid East countries. What does that tell ya?

[scandium]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Accidents do occur.

There is way too much evidence that this was no mere accident. If it wasn't criminal, then at the least it was callous, reckless, and indifferent. And if this is how unarmed U.N. Observers, in a clearly marked U.N. Outpost, are treated then I'm just a little skeptical about just how careful the IDF is to minimize civilian casualties.

Especially when they have also bombed clearly marked ambulances. Especially when they have dropped leaflets telling people to leave the area, then bombed those fleeing the area as they were ordered to do so by the IDF. Especially when they have levelled buildings to the ground in Beirut.

Yeah nothing to see here, nothing at all.

[Linton]

Accident,my a****e!That post has been there for years.Ok some idiot got his grid wrong,but the weather is good and it stands alone in the countryside.The defenders call your boss telling you to stop,so you call in an airstrike! Did I hear the words War Crimes TribunaL!!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Linton

I always thought that the IDF were one of the more professional armies in the world which begs me to ask the questions,who is in control and what do they hope to achieve in this current conflict?

The IDF is tactically professional, and has always been. That allowed them to win against numerically superior Arab forces. That they are professional in the other aspects is less clear (see also, USS Liberty, 1967, which is either a case of such incompetence stacking up the Israeli licence to own an armed force should be revoked, or a deliberate act).

[scandium]

People keep dismissing this as a mere "accident", as if its no big deal, not so much in this thread, but in the others on it as well. Contrast this "accident" and the events surrounding it with this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghani..._fire_incident

Major William Umbach and his wingman Major Harry Schmidt were returning from a 10-hour patrol, at 23,000 feet, when they spotted what they believed to be surface-to-air fire. The fire was actually from a Canadian anti-tank and machine-gun exercise.

Schmidt's testimony at his Article 32 hearing was that he believed his flight lead Major Umbach was under attack. Schmidt requested permission from flight control (AWACS) to fire his 20mm cannons at what he believed to be an anti-aircraft or Multiple Launch Rocket System below. He received the response: "hold fire." Four seconds later, Schmidt said he was "rolling in, in self defense." He dropped a laser-guided bomb 35 seconds later. Schmidt then said "I hope I did the right thing" as the AWACS controller said: "Friendlies, Khandahar."

Factors that played in the decision to act in self-defence included a well-known incident of a US serviceman who fell out of a helicopter and was captured by enemy forces and tortured, before being killed; US aircrew were subsequently very wary of exposing themselves to risk. Major Schmidt's stated, in his official apology to the family and friends of the dead and injured Canadians: "My perception was that we had been ambushed, as we had been briefed that Taliban were expected to use ambush tactics in an around Kandahar...I believed that the projectiles posed a real and present danger to our flight and specifically to my flight lead...I believed at the time that my flight lead's transmission to 'check master arm, check laser arm,' indicated he concurred with my decision that the situation required self-defence."

Aftermath:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/

In May 2005, the four soldiers were honoured with a granite memorial in Fort Campbell, Ky., home of the 187th Infantry Regiment, the American unit the PPCLI fought beside in Afghanistan. The soldiers' names were also engraved on a memorial wall in Fort Campbell, the first time the names of non-U.S. soldiers were included on the wall.

U.S. air force Maj. Harry Schmidt, one of the pilots involved in the "friendly fire" incident that killed four Canadians in Afghanistan, was found guilty of dereliction of duty on July 6, 2004, in what the U.S. military calls a "non-judicial hearing" before a senior officer. The maximum penalty he had faced was 30 days of house arrest.

He was reprimanded and forfeited more than $5,000 US in pay. The air force agreed to allow Schmidt to remain in the Illinois Air National Guard, but not as a pilot. Schmidt later appealed the verdict, but the appeal was rejected. He also filed a lawsuit against the air force, saying it released his letter of reprimand to the media, in violation of his privacy.

Schmidt had made a deal in June 2004 so he could avoid a full court martial.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...idt040706.html

n the reprimand, Lt.-Gen. Bruce Carlson, who handed down the verdict, wrote that Schmidt "acted shamefully...exhibiting arrogance and a lack of flight discipline."

"The victims of your callous misbehaviour were from one of our staunch allies in Operation Enduring Freedom and were your comrades-in-arms," he wrote.

That was an accident. A tragic accident. The pilot was not aware of the training exercise, nor was he informed by the AWACS command center. He believed he was under fire and had to make a quick decision. He made the wrong decision, and it cost him career and nearly a court martial as well. The Judge said that his shameful, undisciplined, and arrogant actions had taken the lives of comrades-in-arms and a staunch ally, while the US Military took the unprecented step of honouring our Canadian soldiers lost that day on one of their Memorial walls.

That whole incident was a mistake, a tragedy, that happened in less than 60 seconds but it was not simply dismissed, it was taken seriously and justice was done and its since been set aside, one of the unfortunate things that sometimes happens in the fog of war.

However as regards the U.N. outpost that contained 4 unarmed observers ... it was shelled 14 times over a 6 hour period even as, at 10 different times while this was happening, the IDF was notified that this clearly marked U.N. Outpost was being repeatedly shelled, endangering the lives of those within, and were told each time that the firing would be stopped. Then it is bombed. Then the resue team is in turn shelled. And this is all just a mistake?

No, this is a war crime as Linton has said, and I suspect it is not the only one the IDF is perpetrating in Lebanon either.

[August]

So forum military experts, If it was a deliberate attack on the UN,then why?

Given all the bad press, and yeah Linton we do get the news here in the states too, where do the Israelis benefit? Heck you guys are talking war crimes tribunals already but you haven't even established a motive.

Maybe this is one. Note the flags:


Is this a UN post or a Hezbollah one?

[joea]

You any more of an expert August? I know you have some experience, but so do some of the critics. At the very least, 10 times warning then shelling the rescue teams is worthy of investigation.

To be fair, if Hizbolah are using ambulances etc. as cover and such...well that could also be investigated as a war crime correct?

[micky1up]

Is This The Same Tactical Professionalism That The Us Forces Show In The Gulf And In Vietnam Blue On Blue Galore

[August]

Originally Posted by joea

You any more of an expert August? I know you have some experience, but so do some of the critics. At the very least, 10 times warning then shelling the rescue teams is worthy of investigation.

To be fair, if Hizbolah are using ambulances etc. as cover and such...well that could also be investigated as a war crime correct?

I'm not the one making accusations Joe. People here are saying this was a deliberate attack on the UN. They're talking war crimes tribunals. All i'm asking is what the motive could possibly be?

[scandium]

Originally Posted by August

So forum military experts, If it was a deliberate attack on the UN,then why?

Given all the bad press, and yeah Linton we do get the news here in the states too, where do the Israelis benefit? Heck you guys are talking war crimes tribunals already but you haven't even established a motive.

Maybe this is one. Note the flags:


Is this a UN post or a Hezbollah one?

I have no theory, only questions that need answering and I don't trust the IDF to investigate themselves on this one. So here are my questions?

1. Omert gave personal assurances to Annan that UN sites would be respected and not be fired on - what measures, if any did he undertake to back up his assurances?

2. Despite his assurances, the U.N Outpost - which contained only unarmed observers was shelled 14 times over 6 hours. Who gave the order to shell this outpost, why did they give it, what Rules of Engagement were they acting on, and why did they shell it - and continue to shell it for 6 hours - when the unarmed observers could not have been firing on them?

3. The IDF was notified 10 times over this 6 hour period that this shelling was endangering the lives of U.N. personnel and was assured each time the firing would stop. Who was it the U.N. was in contact with that gave this assurance, and why after giving this assurance did the firing continue anyway for 6 hours? What steps, if any, did the IDF person(s) contacted by the U.N. take to immediately cease this shelling and if orders to that effect were given, why did it take 6 hours to follow them?

4. Why after the above did an IDF aircraft then bomb this outpost? Was the pilot targetting what he saw as a target of opportunity, and if so, how could he not know that it was a U.N. outpost he was bombing? Or was he acting on an unlawful order, given all of the above, and if so who gave the order and why did he follow it?

5. Why, after the above, did the IDF then shell the rescue team? Again, who gave the order and why?

[scandium]

This has been mentioned in other threads as well; basically the UN outpost, which Israel was aware of, had been shelled 14 times, then bombed, and then the rescue team in turn was shelled; anyway here is an update with more info that wasn't posted in the other threads:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5217176.stm

UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

The post was hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling, diplomats familiar with the probe say.

..

The four unarmed UN observers from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, died after their UN post in the town of Khiam was hit by an Israeli air strike on Tuesday.

The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop.

A senior Irish soldier working for the UN forces had warned the Israelis six times that their bombardment was endangering the lives of UN staff, Ireland's foreign ministry said.

Had Israel responded to the requests, "rather than deliberately ignoring them", the observers would still be alive, a diplomat familiar with the report said.

None of the actions undertaken at this point convince me to give them the benefit of the doubt on this; in fact, it is because of their actions throughout what was little more than a border skirmish before they immediately escalated it into a full scale war, that's displaced 800,000 Lebanese civillians so far and killed 400 more, that I do not give them the benefit of the doubt.

Two of their soldiers are kidnapped, and for that 8 Canadians - 7 of them civilians, none of them armed or part of Hezbollah - have been killed by the IDF.