History Channel "the Atlantic Submarine War"

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Eichenlaub

Aye, history and young ones...

Ahem, there are exceptions... 15 years old here.

Although, I don't know the answer to your question Sailor Steve... Which BB was it?

[Eichenlaub]

Ahem, there are exceptions... 15 years old here.

Yes of course, and I am glad too! When I was younger (I'm still young...), I was the exception myself.

I didn't mean to offend anyone of course. But I certainly recall being the odd one out among certain classmates for unexplicably loving history - I doubt much has changed since then. History simply isn't cool enough for most youngsters.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[stabiz]

But then again you are from Nijmegen! You almost have to be interested in history!

[frenzied]

My question would have been: What's the only battleship every to be credited with sinking a submarine? Hardly anybody knows that.

I just have to answer this one:
The battleship was HMS Dreadnaught in WW1, who sunk a German submarine (can't remeber which one) with gunfire. You have to wonder about a sub captain that surfaces near an enemy battleship...

[P_Funk]

I think that the problem with my generation (and others) is that the educational system in the western world is not very interested in teaching people to be critical thinkers. The idea behind education isn't to get you to remember a bunch of obscure dates and events but to make people's minds able to think and deduce, reason, and critically analyse information. A story a friend told me sums up the problem with a person who cannot think critically.

It was the end of grade 12 and the beginning of their History 12 exam. My friend was sitting down and writing his name down on the sheet. A girl next to him, not an idiot or a ditz but one of those overachievers with straight A's, leaned oiver and asked him one question. "Who won WW2?"

So she had gotten an A on all the tests, read all the required literature several times, andwas getting a solid A. However she could not for thelife of her figure out who had won WW2. Why? Because she lacked deductive reasoning. With all the knowledge she had she could figure out who won (I mean Hitler did die as the Russians were taking Berlin). But she didn't connect the dots. That is education's purpose.

If you look at every good democracy, I mean a truly socialistic one wiich is set on creating democracy it puts special emphasis on education because if citizens can't understand what politicians are saying and can't figure out when they're being lied to then democracy will forever be dysfunctional. Sweden is viewed by many as an example of a great democratic nation. Sweden has 3 education ministers, not 1 but 3. And their curriculum is about more than just learning how to count and read.

The West has a real problem with education and that's why people are such fools. That's why ignorance is so prevalent. It has become worse than before with my generation. My goddamned History teacher was illiterate in history. She called the Roman Empire of the Ancient world the Holy Roman Empire (the latter existed in the middle ages and was in no way related to the former in any way other than name).

Lament

[Seaveins]

Hear, Hear, P-Funk! Alas, there is still hope.

[Eichenlaub]

But then again you are from Nijmegen! You almost have to be interested in history!

Stabiz: actually I was born in Nuenen. You may have heard of that village, since Vincent van Gogh lived there for a few years. Perhaps better known is that Nuenen was featured in an episode of Band of Brothers. In the episode, the Airborne boys get the brunt of a German counter attack, that included heavy armour. At the end of the show, Winters and his men watch the bombing of Eindhoven from afar. Eindhoven is of course another city of Market Garden fame... I only moved to Nijmegen when I started studying history here.

Currently, the Nijmegen summer festivals are held here. It's just wonderful to walk past the ruins of Frederick Barbarossa's 12th century chapel and up to the balustrade of the Valkhof (the remains of the city's castle and former residence of Charlemagne) to look at THAT bridge, brightly lighting up the night with its yellow lamps.

There is some good history to be found in Nijmegen...

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[Puster Bill]

Originally Posted by Kruger

Yap...we are all here of various nations. If we learn from the past mistakes...maybe someday there will be no more wars.

You know, nothing in the past 5,000 years of written history leads me to believe that this will some day come to pass. Sadly, there will be more wars (and some really bad ones) in the future.

It is inevitable.

The best we can hope for is that the 'Good Guys' win (or, at least the 'lesser of two evils'), and that they are over quickly.

[joea]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

My goddamned History teacher was illiterate in history. She called the Roman Empire of the Ancient world the Holy Roman Empire (the latter existed in the middle ages and was in no way related to the former in any way other than name).

Lament

You guys give me hope... still that history teacher.

Originally Posted by frenzied

I just have to answer this one:
The battleship was HMS Dreadnaught in WW1, who sunk a German submarine (can't remeber which one) with gunfire. You have to wonder about a sub captain that surfaces near an enemy battleship...

Good call, but not quite. It was indeed HMS Dreadnought, but she sank U-29 by ramming, not gunfire, killing her entire crew, including Otto Weddigen, who was famous for sinking the three British armoured cruisers Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue all on the same day in his previous boat, U-9.

Weddigen was apparently stalking the home fleet and raised his periscope right in front of Dreadnought. The battleship is reputed to have fired one of her 12-pounder anti-torpedo boat guns, but missed. She then rammed the submarine. The u-boat broached before sinking, and the crew saw the number U-29 painted on the conning tower before it sank.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Puster Bill

You know, nothing in the past 5,000 years of written history leads me to believe that this will some day come to pass. Sadly, there will be more wars (and some really bad ones) in the future.

It is inevitable.

The best we can hope for is that the 'Good Guys' win (or, at least the 'lesser of two evils'), and that they are over quickly.

I am not so pessimistic about the future (that being the distant future). Though now we see conflicts occuring constantly and people suffering around the world, people have been suffering for a very long time. People have been warring for a very long time. Pose the question of why do we fight and the answer could be the solution. It is theorized by some that our male-dominated patriarchal society began as a need for a strong military tradition in order to be able to survive the kind of tribal warfare that was breaking out over resource pockets needed to survive. Back when technology was in its most primitive form available resources were so scarce that survival was fascilitated by war; stealing from others what was needed to survive. Fast forward to the 18th Century and we find the science of economics well in development. The guiding principle of economics, that which drives all that it is concerned with, is scarcity. Scarcity is defined as a lack of sufficient resources to fulfill need or possibly want. Scarcity means hunger, thirst, and anything else humans need to survive. War began, so the theory goes, as a means to survival. In the ensuing thousands of years society has grown into many varied hierarchies and the class system has come to define our needs, wants, and capacity to fulfill the former 2. However today technology has given us the ability to say something we've never been able to before. We can fulfill the basic needs of nearly every, if not every, person on the planet. Don't misinterpret that as being the capitalist needs (like BMWs and face lifts) but the old fashioned needs, you know the ones that peasants had. Now people continue to die and suffer even though we have the ability to aid them. But now we have the potential to alieviate all basic human suffering. That gives me hope. Why? Because there is a chance that people might gradually wake up and become active citizens of their nations and actually realise that war is not necessary. That sounds utopian but Europe was once constantly at war and now is in a Union. One day the whole planet could be that way. Not within my lifetime or my children's or theirs children's or even my great grandchildren. But life goes on. Humans always survive and grow. In the last few hundred years the importance of the individual has become prominant in society. Theoretically individual rights are paramount to the integrity of society. Maybe one day all individuals will have empathy for those who suffer unjustly and maybe we'll help them rather than kill them.

There are no good guys. There are no bad guys. There are only human beings. And human beings are more than anything the product of their circumstances. The wealthy and powerful stand to gain most from war but they do it with the support of the poor and meek. Look at the Russian revolution. It ultimately failed but it proved that the power of the meek trumps that of the few wealthy. All we need to do is collectively recognize our true potential. Those who fight believe they must. We can give them a better life and we must remember that fighting is obsolete.

[Seminole]

There are no good guys. There are no bad guys.





Wanna bet?

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Seminole

There are no good guys. There are no bad guys.





Wanna bet?

Its all subjective. We are all human beings before anything else and circumstance only dictates that we might be enemies or friends. So in reality war and enmity and hatred can all be defeated if we try. If I was born in Lebanon instead of Canada I might be trying to kill an israeli. If I was born in Israel I might be trying to kill a Lebanese man. What is good and bad? Saddam Hussein and his soldiers when they were fighting Iran were our allies. They were great warriors! When he become inconvenient he was suddenly a terrible tyrant and his men were incompetant yet dangerous to us. its all subjective.

[Myxale]

A spot on observation Funk!

It all boils down to the point of view!:hmm:

[stabiz]

Yup, when the aliens come humanity will finally be united. (Before we get blown up)