Dangerous Sequence Of Events

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

Skybird's quite right. At best, war is an act of assasination where the other guy has no chance. When war is "fair", it's a craps shoot who dies.

PD

I posted in the SH3 forums a reply where I explained a theory of the origins of warfare as a means for human survival. War is inherently unfair because it was a response to scarcity which had unfairly distributed resources in such a way that all of the human beings living in tribes could not survive. So war is not just unfair, it is a manifestation of human frustration over his unfair lot. Though it has grown beyond that and become a cultural abhorration. Human culture is now very dysfunctional. We need a cosmic therapist. War means death, war means taking from someone that which is not yours,war is unfairness manifest. War cannot lead to justice.

[mapuc]

If Isreal is gonna drop a nuke, isn't that opening the pandoras box?

Markus

[Yahoshua]

Some wars are just, and some are unjust......but by no means is war something truly desired except by the power-hungry, the insane, or those naieve (sp?).

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better persons than himself." - John Stuart Mills


At what point would the United states begin waging war against Al-Qaeda were they making constant attacks from across the Mexican border? 10 lives? 40? Or maybe a thousand, or two thousand? What if we did nothing? What if Israel did nothing? But if I recall, that's exactly what the Jews did the first time they were targeted by madmen ben on their extermination. The Jews didn't fight back. And so they died.

When considering the population comparison of Israel and the United States in the terms of how many people are being killed by terrorist attacks and the impact that it is making, the cost of doing nothing......is simply staggering.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_basics.php

http://philip.greenspun.com/politics/israel/

http://www.israel.org/MFA/Terrorism-...Violence+a.htm

http://avpv.tripod.com/AmericanVictims.html

http://www.terrorism-victims.org/ter...html#terrorism

http://www.terrorism-victims.org/ter...n-america.html

https://daveblog.wordpress.com/2006/...tionate-force/

I couldn't find the site that had the statistics of population loss in comparison with the U.S. and Israel, but I'll get it up sooner or later.

[Torplexed]

"War is cruelty, you cannot refine it."

Always thought that was a better quote than his more famous "War is hell."

[P_Funk]

Yes but remember, Yahoshua, that these events are rooted in a history much older than any of our lives. Israel created a great amount of instability when it was forceably introduced into the Middle East and those tensions have not been done away with. As far as al-Qaeda is concerned the US started the war which we perceive began on 9/11. Its not that we haven't been doing anything. it;s that we've been doing everything to the Middle east for more than 100 years. many muslims in the Middle east see the Western World in general as guilty of crimes against their forebearers and also that we continue to promote instability within their countries. And they are right. I'm not condoning 9/11 or Hezbullah butI'm saying we started this a long time ago. We took our superior power and imposed on them our might. We have conveniently forgotten that. I'm not condoning terrorism but the fact is that we practiced terrorism against these people long before they turned it back on us. So this is an endless circle of violence that is generations old. War begets war and people, especially the traditionally based islamic culture, have a long memory for crimes against their nation.

And even if hezbollah started this what is bombing Lebannon back to the state it was after the last war gonna do? It was this kind of destruction that opened the door for a group like Hezbollah to become so powerful. When you wound a people they will not stand by and be attacked. They will fight back. 9/11 was a culmination of anger and revenge for everything we've done to these people since our forebearers entered babylon and crossed the Sumerian heartland and declared that we were there to civilize them and free them from tyrants. Well we became the tyrants and they are just doing what any of us would do. They're fighting. And as long as we continue to bomb their cities and kill their families there will always be a place for terrorism and hatred and hezbollah will grow ever stronger. And if not hezbollah then another group. They aren't the original terrorists. We are and we are still the terrorists. How do you differntiate between a Hezbollah rocket in haifa on a train station and an israeli Air Strike in Beirut on an apartment building? Israel is terrorizing the Lebanese. There are no good guys here. Its only bad deeds begetting bad deeds. And we will do this again in 20years if nothing changes.

So, what is your idea for changing the situation?

Go ahead P_Funk, say it you know you want to. You've been dancing around it.

[Iceman]

Ya know what is really stupid if you think about it...Why would or should Israel wait until it is nuked to use nukes instead of using them first on Iran, Syria or whoever else it saw fit to destroy it who have Proclaimed...Proclaimed that they would do the same?...Granted the "We Will Bury You" theme did not pan out but Russia it seems has more restraint then I think Muslims have in Iran....hum what a gamble...wait and see if one falls huh is the solution of the Scandiums here?...what a gamble.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Ya know what is really stupid if you think about it...Why would or should Israel wait until it is nuked to use nukes instead of using them first on Iran, Syria or whoever else it saw fit to destroy it who have Proclaimed...Proclaimed that they would do the same?...Granted the "We Will Bury You" theme did not pan out but Russia it seems has more restraint then I think Muslims have in Iran....hum what a gamble...wait and see if one falls huh is the solution of the Scandiums here?...what a gamble.

You sure you're a Christian? I wouldn't bring this up except for the fact that you throw it in everyone's face so routinely, quote scripture, and even have it in your sig. So who would Jesus nuke Iceman? You know in a way I love you man, because with your every post like this - where you advocate nuclear holocaust in countries who are not only not even nuclearly armed, but not even at war with anyone - you give proof of the LIE so many here spout daily about "how its the Muslims who want to kill all of us and take our lands."

Where are the Muslim posts on this board preaching the hate and advocating the killing and wanton slaughter that so many Holier-than-thou Jews and Christians here spout daily? Nowhere to be seen.

You know who it is who really wants to do the killing Ice? Who the real problems is? Guys like you, who come in all faiths, from all places of the world. As Mike has said, and I'm 100% with him on this, I'd lock you and every other hatemonger just like you up in a cage somewhere and let you settle your differences there.

By the way, here's something you probably missed in the Bible so allow me to point it out to you:

Matt. 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by waste gate

So, what is your idea for changing the situation?

Go ahead P_Funk, say it you know you want to. You've been dancing around it.

What is it with you and needing a universal solution for anything to make sense? I don't have to know how to create world peace to know that war isn't gonna do it.

Fine, you wanna know why what Israel is doing isn't gonna destroy Hezbollah or end terrorist threats against their country? Because Hezbollah became powerful because of exactly what Israel is doing. The instability created by the total bombing compaign against Lebanon actually limits the elected government's ability to function. Israel has destroyed the infrastruction of Lebanon. Infrasctructure is the life blood of a government. Israel is crippling the very people they say they want to take control of the areas which Hezbollah is holding. In fact the weakness that this kind of destruction creates is exactly how terrorist groups like Hezbollah get footholds in countries. Plus if Israel cripples the entire country the young men who have watched their families die and their world be destroyed will go to the people who are promising to save it or at least get revenge. Why do you think Hitler was so powerful? He won over people because he was promising to reclaim Germany's power after France had humilated and crippled Germany with the Treaty of Versailles.

This kind of warfare ony creates more hatred and breeds more violence. This can't end with war. Diplomacy is how you achieve peace. The only problem is that Israel won't deal. The peace process was looking promising with palestine for a while. Guess who ended it? Israel. Lebanon and Palestine are being backed into a wall, again. We all know what they'll do when they're backed into a corner. The same thing they've done for the last 40 years.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

yes... by all means Iceman... lets preemtively destroy anyone and everyone who doesn't like us...

if this mindlessness had've prevailed during the 60s, none of us would be here discussing this now...

and you know nothing about Iran or Iraq... you've never been there, and probably couldn't even find it on a map... just as you probably know nothing about the former Soivet Union...

at least i've been to the place... before the Shah was deposed, spending a few crew rests over in Iran... and what i know first hand about the former Soviet union shall remain unsaid here...

yet you are so ready to make such an assertive statement of fact about both these places...

what a load of crap you've managed to fill your mind with... and worse, to convince yourself it has any validity whatsoever...


--Mike

[Yahoshua]

[quote=P_Funk] How do you differntiate between a Hezbollah rocket in haifa on a train station and an israeli Air Strike in Beirut on an apartment building? Israel is terrorizing the Lebanese. [quote]

Israel dropped leaflets telling the civilians to leave Hizbullah strongholds, Hizbullah simply launches rockets at population centers when there is a number of choice military targets nearby they could've shot at. Oh, and how exactly are you going to explain that hizbullah was able to succesfully strike a miliary vessel when Hizbullah has no radar stations of their own? My answer: LEBANESE ARMY!!!

Israel isn't terrorizing the Lebanese, they are punishing them for allowing the situation to come to where it is. When this is over Lebanon will remember what she failed to do, and I hope this will not need to be done again.

Israel invaded Lebanon to stop Hizbullah, it was a long and drawn out failure. When Lebanon complained, and the U.N. passed a resolution for Israel to leave, Israel complied. As a "reward" the U.N. passed resolution 1559 which required Hizbullah to disarm and for the Lebanese to re-assert their own military authority along the border. None of the requirements of U.N. resolution 1559 has been accomplished. So whose fault is it now? The U.N.? The Lebanese? The terrorists of Hizbullah? All three are guilty.

And since then, Hizbullah has stockpiled weapons and rockets, and now is launching them against Israeli civilians. Israel should've struck when Hizbullah wasn't as strong in the area, but then again, everybody would complain about it. God forbid that Israel should want to defend her citizens and soldiers from blood-thirsty Islamists bent on world domination.

"Where are the Muslim posts on this board preaching the hate and advocating the killing and wanton slaughter that so many Holier-than-thou Jews and Christians here spout daily? Nowhere to be seen."

I haven't seen Osama post on this board yet, I'll see if I can get him invited, but of course he may be one out several million who know what a computer looks like while all the rest are carrying rifles in the field or are in the process of launching rockets or are busy learning how to fly airplanes.

Oh and btw, when you lose friends and comrades to gruesome death and torture, and see that an entire people celebrates when they murder masses of civilians it is a massive understatement to say that it irritates me when I see them doing that. When that occurs, I question their right to exist when all they are looking forward to is the extermination of an entire nation.

Along those lines, WHY in the world would Hamas kidnap a soldier after they had achieved their so-called goal of pushing all the Jews out of the Gaza Strip and most of the west Bank? Nothing was keeping them or holding them back from laying down their weapons and attempting to establish a government and begin living normal lives. Do you approve of their actions? DO you approve of the actions of an entity that has achieved their goal but still fights on with no apparent provocation? What these people want is for Israel to go away.

If the Arabs would lay down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel lay down her arms, there would be no more Israel.

"The peace process was looking promising with palestine for a while. Guess who ended it? Israel."

That is an outright lie. Who kidnapped soldiers first? Who declared war first with sneak attacks, suicide bombers, and executions?

If such a thing were true then I apologize for the following:

Jewish pogroms against Arabs
All Arab airlines hijacked and passengers executed by Jews
All Arab athletes executed during the 1972 Olympics
All Arab parlors destroyed by Jewish suicide bombers
All Arab civlians killed outright by jewish militants
For declaring war against Arab states and then proceeding to massacre their civilian population as they fled in terror

Try reading this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_terrorism

Or try reading any of the other articles I posted earlier. We didn't start this godforsaken war. But by all appropriate means we are going to end it. The sooner the better.

And just in case you didn't have the time to get around to reading it I'll quote this little bit of it:

"
Why do Arabs reject the State of Israel?



In the Web age it isn't necessary to speculate on why the Arabs reject Israel. We can simply read what they've written on the subject. Let's start with Article 22 of the Palestinian National Charter [Covenant]:

Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland.

Note that this is essentially the governing constitution for the Palestine National Authority, amendable only by a two-thirds vote of the Palestinian Congress. Not all Arab nations call for the destruction of Israel in their constitutions and yet most Arab countries have maintained a continuous declared state of war with Israel since 1948. To understand this 55-year-long war it therefore becomes necessary to engage in a bit of analysis.

Israel occupies 20,330 square kilometers of land or roughly 0.23 percent of nearby Arab territory (see table at the end of the this article). This percentage would be slightly larger if we excluded Iran, which is technically non-Arab but which has been at the forefront of the fight against Israel by training, financing, and arming Palestinians. This percentage would be much lower if we included the Arab states of North Africa such as Libya, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, etc. To put this into perspective, 0.23 percent of the Lower 48 United States is roughly equal to the southeastern corner of Florida (about 1/8th of the state).
In some sense the State of Israel represents a tremendous achievement for the Arab countries. In exchange for a fraction of one percent of their territory they managed to expropriate the property of their Jewish citizens (estimated at between $13 and $30 billion in 1950 dollars) and expel approximately 870,000 Jews from their territories. Without incurring any of the bad publicity that afflicted Hitler, the Arabs managed to accomplish one of Nazi Germany's primary goals: creating a vast empire that was free of Jews. For the first time in 2500 years an Arab could walk down the streets of Baghdad without encountering a Jew. Morocco and Algeria rid themselves of hundreds of thousands of Jews. As impressive an achievement as concentrating the Jews from all the Arab countries into a tiny corner of the Arab world is, it would be yet more impressive to dump the Jews off somewhere in Christian territory, or perhaps to kill them all. This then becomes the challenge facing the modern Arab political leader. "

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

you suffer from the one sided, self righteous, deluded view that inflicts all who think they are are god's chosen...

whether it be pat roberts, muslim extremists, or jewish extremists... whether it be charles manson, jim jones, or any other self proclaimed son of god sitting at his right hand... you all have one thing in common...

... your lack of compasion for human life.

you find it so easy to chalk em up as being collateral damage... and that's where all who think like you are wrong...


--Mike

[Yahoshua]

Spoken like a true Anti-Semite.

It is so convenient for you to ignore the truth and cry "the pain, the misery we suffer, it isn't our fault."

We are at war. And we have done an admirable job of keeping civilian casualties low. The problem being that we're fighting an enemy that has no morals, and so they hide in the civlian population of a foreign nation while they continue to hammer away at our civlilians. What did you expect us to do? Give up more land? Wait a little longer until only a fragment of what was once a nation remains. Unable to exert themselves or raise their voice for fear of being criticized in their drive for survival, or worse, exterminated at will?

Why don't you stop hiding it. Go ahead and say it. You hate us and you hate us for the sole reason that we exist. We're "Christ killers." And baby eaters, we use christian/arab blood in our passover meals. We actually engineered the holocaust but it was really arabs that we killed. Oh yes, we're the ones who really engineered the attacks on 9/11 and we're actually funneling Jewish terrorists into Iraq to stir up unrest and kill American soldiers. Oh yes, we did it all. We control all the oil and we control the economy of the world, we're in the money but we cant seem able to stand up to the criticism of the United States or the EU. I guess I'll have to correct that the next time the paper runs something involving them and do a little "editing."

But nevermind the fact that while our nation is under great strain we also take pride in having an emergency response team ready to assist with the humanitarian aid of nation in need. And that we take no value in human life, not even the life of one of our soldiers who has been captured by terrorists. No way in hell will we put our lives on the line to get him back. We're carefree, rotten, and just plain evil.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/actual/tsunami/1.html

http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ...9/99X09X03.HTM

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/...7&article=4675

Are these things that you believe or is there some reason that we have no right to defend ourselves and our citizens just as every other nation does? Take Turkey for example. Her soldiers and civilians are being attacked by Kurdish Guerillas and they are threatening to attack Kurdish camps in northern Iraq. When they start bombing camps and sending in troops are you going to sit by and watch the show while cheering them on for defending their home or are you going to criticize them too? Are you going to tell them that they shouldn't fight back, and just calmly allow someone to tear off their arms?

I don't delude myself with the simple-minded thought of being "Chosen" regurgitating and re-digesting that one single thought in an endless cycle. We've never viewed ourselves as superior or better than others (this train of thought is especially common among Anti-Semites). But we are obligated to follow a strict code of law and a way of life that has outlasted many empires and cultures. Where are the Assyrians and Babylonians? Where are the Persians and the Medes? Where are the Ancient Greeks and the Romans? Where is Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy? We have outlasted all of them and I should think that is an accomplishment to be proud of.

But I don't recall that we claimed to be the "Master Race." But one thing I do recall is that we have an incredible value for human life, and even animal life as well. We were the first nation to give women rights. We were the first nation to establish a code of laws that almost ALL other nations now see as something desirable (talking the 10 commandments here). And exactly what is there to be seen as cruel as: Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not lie (either to yourself or your neighbhor), and honor your parents?

How many children do you see honoring their parents and obeying them even if they didn't agree with what their parents said? How many liars do you know? How many people do you think are liars? Don't you appreciate the fact that we also forbid people to wantonly murder,, steal, and rape at will?

Nope, we have no compassion at all for human life.

[August]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

you suffer from the one sided, self righteous, deluded view that inflicts all who think they are are god's chosen...

whether it be pat roberts, muslim extremists, or jewish extremists... whether it be charles manson, jim jones, or any other self proclaimed son of god sitting at his right hand... you all have one thing in common...

... your lack of compasion for human life.

you find it so easy to chalk em up as being collateral damage... and that's where all who think like you are wrong...


--Mike

Gods chosen? Hardly. I believe in the concept of a divine being, but I certainly don't feel that "God is on *my* side" or anyone elses for that matter, and that makes the rest of your little straw man post irrelevant.

[Gizzmoe]

Worse than a kindergarten... Thread closed.

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