History Channel "the Atlantic Submarine War"

[Roads88]

I recall an article about "Muss" Mortan machine gunning some Sons of Nippon in the water. He is one of the U.S. Navy's most highly regarded WWII Sub commanders.

An body here think that anything would have been done if he had made it through the war.

[Dutch]

Someone said earlier, winner write history.
This has very quickly degraded to a bach US post.

I have a great respect for ALL the soldier that participated in WW2, friends and foe. Wether thier tactics were right or wrong.

Lets actually contribute to this post and stop the stupid US bashing, because if truth be told, we don't give a **** about what you think of us, and there isn't much you can do to change that. So have a nice warm cup of stf*

Proud Member of the UNITED STATES ARMY.

***End Rant***

[Kruger]

Yap...we are all here of various nations. If we learn from the past mistakes...maybe someday there will be no more wars.

[Puster Bill]

Originally Posted by Kruger

Yap...we are all here of various nations. If we learn from the past mistakes...maybe someday there will be no more wars.

You know, nothing in the past 5,000 years of written history leads me to believe that this will some day come to pass. Sadly, there will be more wars (and some really bad ones) in the future.

It is inevitable.

The best we can hope for is that the 'Good Guys' win (or, at least the 'lesser of two evils'), and that they are over quickly.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Puster Bill

You know, nothing in the past 5,000 years of written history leads me to believe that this will some day come to pass. Sadly, there will be more wars (and some really bad ones) in the future.

It is inevitable.

The best we can hope for is that the 'Good Guys' win (or, at least the 'lesser of two evils'), and that they are over quickly.

I am not so pessimistic about the future (that being the distant future). Though now we see conflicts occuring constantly and people suffering around the world, people have been suffering for a very long time. People have been warring for a very long time. Pose the question of why do we fight and the answer could be the solution. It is theorized by some that our male-dominated patriarchal society began as a need for a strong military tradition in order to be able to survive the kind of tribal warfare that was breaking out over resource pockets needed to survive. Back when technology was in its most primitive form available resources were so scarce that survival was fascilitated by war; stealing from others what was needed to survive. Fast forward to the 18th Century and we find the science of economics well in development. The guiding principle of economics, that which drives all that it is concerned with, is scarcity. Scarcity is defined as a lack of sufficient resources to fulfill need or possibly want. Scarcity means hunger, thirst, and anything else humans need to survive. War began, so the theory goes, as a means to survival. In the ensuing thousands of years society has grown into many varied hierarchies and the class system has come to define our needs, wants, and capacity to fulfill the former 2. However today technology has given us the ability to say something we've never been able to before. We can fulfill the basic needs of nearly every, if not every, person on the planet. Don't misinterpret that as being the capitalist needs (like BMWs and face lifts) but the old fashioned needs, you know the ones that peasants had. Now people continue to die and suffer even though we have the ability to aid them. But now we have the potential to alieviate all basic human suffering. That gives me hope. Why? Because there is a chance that people might gradually wake up and become active citizens of their nations and actually realise that war is not necessary. That sounds utopian but Europe was once constantly at war and now is in a Union. One day the whole planet could be that way. Not within my lifetime or my children's or theirs children's or even my great grandchildren. But life goes on. Humans always survive and grow. In the last few hundred years the importance of the individual has become prominant in society. Theoretically individual rights are paramount to the integrity of society. Maybe one day all individuals will have empathy for those who suffer unjustly and maybe we'll help them rather than kill them.

There are no good guys. There are no bad guys. There are only human beings. And human beings are more than anything the product of their circumstances. The wealthy and powerful stand to gain most from war but they do it with the support of the poor and meek. Look at the Russian revolution. It ultimately failed but it proved that the power of the meek trumps that of the few wealthy. All we need to do is collectively recognize our true potential. Those who fight believe they must. We can give them a better life and we must remember that fighting is obsolete.

[Seminole]

There are no good guys. There are no bad guys.





Wanna bet?

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Seminole

There are no good guys. There are no bad guys.





Wanna bet?

Its all subjective. We are all human beings before anything else and circumstance only dictates that we might be enemies or friends. So in reality war and enmity and hatred can all be defeated if we try. If I was born in Lebanon instead of Canada I might be trying to kill an israeli. If I was born in Israel I might be trying to kill a Lebanese man. What is good and bad? Saddam Hussein and his soldiers when they were fighting Iran were our allies. They were great warriors! When he become inconvenient he was suddenly a terrible tyrant and his men were incompetant yet dangerous to us. its all subjective.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Someone said earlier, winner write history.
This has very quickly degraded to a bach US post.

I have a great respect for ALL the soldier that participated in WW2, friends and foe. Wether thier tactics were right or wrong.

Lets actually contribute to this post and stop the stupid US bashing, because if truth be told, we don't give a **** about what you think of us, and there isn't much you can do to change that. So have a nice warm cup of stf*

Proud Member of the UNITED STATES ARMY.

***End Rant***

Yes what a lovely way to even things out man. "That not fair, you guys are mean, I DONT GIVE A FU*K WHAT YOU THINK! I'm also a soldier so whatever you say thats critical of my nation is personallyoffensive no matter how valid it is. Thank you for being so understanding."

Why is it that you're a soldier matters? And if you dont care what "we" think about you why do you care if we are critical of the US? And talking about how the Germans are portrayed on modern TV and Movies in the US is part of the thread's subject. If that means being critical of your nation it isn't unsubstantiated "bashing". It's called critical analysis. The US isn't perfect. Nor is Britain or Germany. Hell Canada (my home btw) is definately suspect about alot of stuff. I'm a proud Canadian but I also know we made Napalm and Agent Orange for the US during Vietnam and are thus by connection responsible for alot of death and suffering. And don't try and say that we're disrespecting the soldiers of the war by being critical of what they did or did not do. That's just called history, you know talking about what happened and who dunnit. Plus if you are interested in respecting the memories of all the soldiers regardless of nationality then the way the Germans are portrayed in your country and others ought to be right up your alley. SO what I'm saying is don't accuse us of anything. It just sounds petty. And if anything reinforces the stereotype of arrogant and ignorant Americans.

So here's my personal addition to this thread. I believe it was Winston Churchill who said during WW2 that "I intend to write history".

[Rose]

I am American, but I believe Dutch has entered the wrong thread, as I do not see one ounce of "US-bashing." We are instead talking about how all navies of the Second World War committed their share of inexcusable atrocities -- the US included. We are also talking about how modern documentaries unfairly portray the Kriegsmarine.

Now that Dutch knows what we're talking about, lets get back to the subject.

[Eichenlaub]

Apart from the Peleus affair (U-852, Eck), the Kriegsmarine fought an unusually honourable war in my view. Of all the services in WWII, of all major combatant nations, the KM stands out as a service with an excellent record.

I of course do not consider submarine warfare "mean", "cowardly" or "vicious" at all. To me it is an accepted form of warfare, and all nations practiced it with varying degrees of effort and success.

If you can read German, perhaps you'd like to read this site: http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg...fbruechige.htm. It's about alleged and proven war crimes on the seas. The Peleus is the only German offence that can be proven. The U-247 and U-516 incidents were not proven to be crimes despite eyewitness testimonies in the latter's (and presumably in the former's as well) case. Uboat.net doesn't list Matschulat and Wiebe as having done anything out of the ordinary. It seems that in both cases survivors were killed by gunfire, but not specifically aimed at - which must have happened all the time of course.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[Frenssen]

I recommend Discovery`s three part series "U-Boat War". It is unbiased and has interviews of veterans from both sides of the conflict.

[Seaveins]

I am a US citizen and veteran. One grandfather was a Danish resistance member and the other flew "the hump" in Asia for 3 years. I grew up with plenty of German/Japanese bashing like "the only good thing about Germany is that she lies between Denmark and Russia", etc., etc. What I have learned these past 40 years as a student of history is that war itself is the enemy. Right and wrong can be dynamic viewpoints and all countries have blemishes in their war histories. My country is having a hard time keeping our noses clean as I write.

One last thing...I work for the Smithsonian Institution and am lucky to associate with many historians on a daily basis. The History Channel's first priority is entertainment.

Respectfully - Lars