[REL] Dark Waters

[Bubblehead1980]

Anyone on here read this book? Thoughts?

https://uboat.net/books/item/1619


Part of my work for Dark Waters, I plan to add some "historic" contacts as I did with TMO Mainly convoys like SC 7 and HX 72, so being doing research and found this one. These were pivotal battles and would be great recreate. I actually really like the traffic in DW, it provides a realistic experience for U Boats in North Atlantic so not really messing with it, just adding roughly 10 or so historical contacts. I am looking to get torpedo firing AI subs ( Uboats in this case) into DW as have FOTRS and TMO, so could where appropriate have wolfpacks with the historic contacts. Would be great if, since using the U Boat side of SH 4 where can summon other ships, instead of a cruiser, could summon u boats but that is kind of beyond my skill set, but perhaps possible.

Love this mod, just looking to enhance it.

I for most part have night surface attacks down, little adjusting left to do but

[Bubblehead1980]

This really is a great mod, so many cool aspects, would love for TMO to have. Damage model...sinking when flooding from surface, deck hatch which opens and closes when diving on the Type VIIC, oil slicks for subs when damaged.


After a highly successful first patrol in U-95 , first in a Type VIIC, was in bay of biscay when pesky aircraft came along, I submerged first two times but after he came back, decided to fight it out. AA gun set him on fire but he scored a direct bomb hit on my uboat, killing nearly everyone topside, injuring all. Boat quickly went to the bottom, no hope of getting to surface.

So I was today years old when I learned not to joust with aircraft in Dark Waters lol. I rarely did it in TMO for same reason but get annoyed and decided to give it a try. Now have to start another career, again lol. Killed two careers in a row now lol.


























keyboardtester com

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

This really is a great mod, so many cool aspects, would love for TMO to have. Damage model...sinking when flooding from surface, deck hatch which opens and closes when diving on the Type VIIC, oil slicks for subs when damaged.


After a highly successful first patrol in U-95 , first in a Type VIIC, was in bay of biscay when pesky aircraft came along, I submerged first two times but after he came back, decided to fight it out. AA gun set him on fire but he scored a direct bomb hit on my uboat, killing nearly everyone topside, injuring all. Boat quickly went to the bottom, no hope of getting to surface.

So I was today years old when I learned not to joust with aircraft in Dark Waters lol. I rarely did it in TMO for same reason but get annoyed and decided to give it a try. Now have to start another career, again lol. Killed two careers in a row now lol.

don't even think about tangling with Allied aircraft.
because if you get lucky and shoot down the first one, they keep coming after you.
i came to the conclusion while i was working with Fifi on DW that if you want to go and sink ships you have to dial-down the aircraft attacks.
otherwise you never make it out of Biscay Bay.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

don't even think about tangling with Allied aircraft.
because if you get lucky and shoot down the first one, they keep coming after you.
i came to the conclusion while i was working with Fifi on DW that if you want to go and sink ships you have to dial-down the aircraft attacks.
otherwise you never make it out of Biscay Bay.

Yep, I learned that today. lol I usually avoid aircraft and dive as do in TMO (once learned hard way with TMO planes). U Boats can dive fast enough but I chose to stay on surface and well paid price.


I altered the airstrike.cfg a bit as was not getting many air contacts and it was frustrating. Seem to have right balance but its still early in the war lol.

[Bubblehead1980]

Third career in a row have been killed lol. Guess have to start again.


This time, a G7a TI torpedo did a circle run. I was in the surface and nearly at a dead stop, well boat could not accelerate enough to get out of the way, torpedo hit me. large hole in boat, flooding, sunk.

Love it but first I was court martialed for sinking neutrals sailing in convoy with enemy. (Fixed that. New career started...lucky hit from a deck gun of escort during night surface attack.


Third, killed by airplane 90 km from port after highly successful patrol.


Fourth, the circular run.


Speaking of which....did the germans have problems with circle runners?

I've read on the torpedokrise (Torpedo Crisis) and no mention of circle runners being a problem.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Third career in a row have been killed lol. Guess have to start again.


This time, a G7a TI torpedo did a circle run. I was in the surface and nearly at a dead stop, well boat could not accelerate enough to get out of the way, torpedo hit me. large hole in boat, flooding, sunk.

Love it but first I was court martialed for sinking neutrals sailing in convoy with enemy. (Fixed that. New career started...lucky hit from a deck gun of escort during night surface attack.


Third, killed by airplane 90 km from port after highly successful patrol.


Fourth, the circular run.


Speaking of which....did the germans have problems with circle runners?

I've read on the torpedokrise (Torpedo Crisis) and no mention of circle runners being a problem.

yes, their G7a was essentially the same fish as our Mk14.
not sure who stole what from whom but, after all was said and done, it was like Spy v Spy in the old Mad magazine.
i do not think that the G7a/Mk14 were circle runners as much as the Mk18, but you could see them coming and they ran deep and they failed to explode.
it could be that an over-enthusiastic Ubi designer added it to the German side out of enthusiasm.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

yes, their G7a was essentially the same fish as our Mk14.
not sure who stole what from whom but, after all was said and done, it was like Spy v Spy in the old Mad magazine.
i do not think that the G7a/Mk14 were circle runners as much as the Mk18, but you could see them coming and they ran deep and they failed to explode.
it could be that an over-enthusiastic Ubi designer added it to the German side out of enthusiasm.

Yes, in my research I noticed there was some cross over, more than would be possible by simple coincidence, so likely some spying going on. Well MK 14 had bit of circle runner problems earlier in war...Grunion is believed to have been damage by MK 14 circle run exploded close to her when submerged. Tulibee was lost to a MK 14 circle run in March 1944. but yes MK 18, especially the MK 18-1 had among depth keeping and battery issues, circle run issues.

Interesting enough, sure you know, the MK 18 design was based on a German TII G7e electric torpedo which did not explode and ran up on the beach when was fired close to shore. G7e had depth control issues until Spring 1942. So the design flawed carried over from captured torpedo into the MK 18. No exploder issues with MK 18 because it used the simple MK 8 exploder, contact only, with the new firing pins that solved the dud issue.


All research thus far, have not read about U Boat's suffering circle run. I mean its possible and may have happened, but figured it would be mentioned. I did not remove it from the torpedo.sim file since such a small chance, when reworked them to match history .

[Kapitän]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Yep, I learned that today. lol I usually avoid aircraft and dive as do in TMO (once learned hard way with TMO planes). U Boats can dive fast enough but I chose to stay on surface and well paid price.


I altered the airstrike.cfg a bit as was not getting many air contacts and it was frustrating. Seem to have right balance but its still early in the war lol.

Hi Bubblehead1980,


This is interesting to me! I'm currently trying out KSDIIAce, October 1942, leaving Bordeaux through the Bay of Biscay and now postioned west of the Canary Islands, heading toward South America: Not a single enemy A/C in 1 week!


I'm beginning to wonder, if there is something wrong with the airstrike.cfg settings. Don't get me wrong: It's not like that I want to be killed by A/C, but zero airplanes seems a bit "unrealistic" to me. Would you (or anyone else) have any ideas, what could be the issue?


Here are my current "Data/Cfg/AirStrike.cfg" settings (no changes made):

[AirStrikeSettings]
; AirStrike Creation Parameters
; Airstrike Session:
; 1. Compute airbases in range according to their aircraft maximum ranges
; 2. Compute air coverage factors on allies/axis/neutral on the target zone
; 3. Compute airstrike probability from each base
; 3.1 check number of aircraft that can strike at that range and conditions, and compute a coverage factor based on the range of each aircraft type
; and detection area around submarine ( 10 km radius )
; 3.2 multiply coverage factor for the target area with :
; - current airstrike probability againt that side
; - nigft factor ( if necessary )
; - airbase competence
; - close to airbase factor
; 3.3 check probability for airstrike
; 3.4 add more aircraft probabilistically for a large target


Maximum Aircraft Range=1500 ;[>0] in kilometers
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.7 ;[>0] Modifier for poor airbase (carrier) rating
Novice Airbase Modifier=1.3 ;[>0] Modifier for novice airbase (carrier) rating
Competent Airbase Modifier=1.7 ;[>0] Modifier for competent airbase (carrier) rating
Veteran Airbase Modifier=2.2 ;[>0] Modifier for veteran airbase (carrier) rating
Elite Airbase Modifier=2.5 ;[>0] Modifier for elite airbase (carrier) rating
Night Modifier=0.15 ;[>0] Modifier on strike probability at night
Default Air Strike Probability=30 ;[>0] Default probability to send an airstrike from a airbase (carrier)
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=40 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a radio message sent
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=70 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a contact message sent
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=50 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on player detection
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] decrease from an increased probability to default one on each air session
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=40 ;[>0] steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval(90sec)

[propbeanie]

Here are a couple of examples to consider Kapitän:

First, the Stock game:
Maximum Aircraft Range=2000 ;[>0] in kilometers
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.2 ;[>0] Modifier for poor airbase (carrier) rating
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.35 ;[>0] Modifier for novice airbase (carrier) rating
Competent Airbase Modifier=0.5 ;[>0] Modifier for competent airbase (carrier) rating
Veteran Airbase Modifier=0.7 ;[>0] Modifier for veteran airbase (carrier) rating
Elite Airbase Modifier=1 ;[>0] Modifier for elite airbase (carrier) rating
Night Modifier=0.5 ;[>0] Modifier on strike probability at night
Default Air Strike Probability=10 ;[>0] Default probability to send an airstrike from a airbase (carrier)
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=30 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a radio message sent
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=70 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a contact message sent
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=40 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on player detection
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] decrease from an increased probability to default one on each air session
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=10 ;[>0] steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval(90sec)

... and from FotRSU
Maximum Aircraft Range=986 ;[>0] In kilometers[STOCK=2000/FOTRSU=1500]
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.3 ;[>0] Modifier for poor airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=0.2/FOTRSU=0.25]
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.45 ;[>0] Modifier for novice airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=0.35/FOTRSU=0.3]
Competent Airbase Modifier=0.65 ;[>0] Modifier for competent airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=0.5/FOTRSU=0.35]
Veteran Airbase Modifier=0.85 ;[>0] Modifier for veteran airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=0.7/FOTRSU=0.4]
Elite Airbase Modifier=1.0 ;[>0] Modifier for elite airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=1/FOTRSU=1]
Night Modifier=0.45 ;[>0] Modifier on strike probability at night[STOCK=0.5/FOTRSU=0.5]
Default Air Strike Probability=8 ;[>0] Default probability to send an airstrike from a airbase (carrier)STOCK=10/FOTRSU=10]
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=35;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a radio message sent[STOCK=30/FOTRSU=38]
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=60;[>0] Increase over the default probability on contact message sent[STOCK=70/FOTRSU=65]
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=48;[>0] Increase over the default probability on player detection[STOCK=40/FOTRSU=70]
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] Decrease from an increased probability to default on each air session[STOCK=10/FOTRSU=10]
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=42 ;[>0] Steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval (90sec) [STOCK=10/FOTRSU=25]

We set all airplanes and airbases to "Elite" so the planes fly better. We also shortened the range in FotRSU since we were getting small planes way beyond their actual capabilities, and increased the Logic Steps substantially. The math for that is "42 steps times the 90, times 10) which equals 378000 seconds, which comes to about every 10.5 hours, which seems to make sense in most areas, as far as traffic patterns are concerned. A few things to remember about the figures is that ALL the AirBases near where you are respond to your submarine's presence. So if you are detected, you might four or five or more airbases sending everything they have after your submarine. Very unrealistic. That Logic Steps is something to really experiment with.

The AirBase Modifiers are multiplication things that increase (>1) or decrease an AirBases (<1) capability to respond, and how strong that response is. So an Elite AirBase in the mod not only sends a strong airplane, but it sends 2.5 times that response, and that figure divides the Logic Steps, since the AirBase is capable of responding faster, so now in FotRSU, that 2.5 modifier would make our 10.5 hour session into less than 2 and a quarter hours - from each base of that CrewRating level that you are within range of, so you might be blanketed in airplanes if detected in the Bay of Biscay. Most of the other "modifiers" for radio and night, etc., are "percentages", which modify the Logic Steps also, such that if you sent a radio message to BdU, you increase the odds of an air attack in your immediate area by 40%. It can be a real bother to attempt to balance those settings, and as mentioned, the number of available airbases (land or carrier based) comes into play.

One really strange quirk in the game's airplanes, no matter the mod or how high the airplane's CrewRating (Elite flies the best), but if your submarine is detected and an airbase responds and sends airplanes your way, but there is an intervening land mass higher than 500 meters (the default height planes spawn at), the airplanes will crash into said land mass... they cannot fly over or around the land mass. They will beeline on the shortest route to your submarine...

[Kapitän]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Here are a couple of examples to consider Kapitän:

First, the Stock game:
Maximum Aircraft Range=2000 ;[>0] in kilometers
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.2 ;[>0] Modifier for poor airbase (carrier) rating
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.35 ;[>0] Modifier for novice airbase (carrier) rating
Competent Airbase Modifier=0.5 ;[>0] Modifier for competent airbase (carrier) rating
Veteran Airbase Modifier=0.7 ;[>0] Modifier for veteran airbase (carrier) rating
Elite Airbase Modifier=1 ;[>0] Modifier for elite airbase (carrier) rating
Night Modifier=0.5 ;[>0] Modifier on strike probability at night
Default Air Strike Probability=10 ;[>0] Default probability to send an airstrike from a airbase (carrier)
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=30 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a radio message sent
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=70 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a contact message sent
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=40 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on player detection
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] decrease from an increased probability to default one on each air session
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=10 ;[>0] steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval(90sec)

... and from FotRSU
Maximum Aircraft Range=986 ;[>0] In kilometers[STOCK=2000/FOTRSU=1500]
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.3 ;[>0] Modifier for poor airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=0.2/FOTRSU=0.25]
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.45 ;[>0] Modifier for novice airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=0.35/FOTRSU=0.3]
Competent Airbase Modifier=0.65 ;[>0] Modifier for competent airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=0.5/FOTRSU=0.35]
Veteran Airbase Modifier=0.85 ;[>0] Modifier for veteran airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=0.7/FOTRSU=0.4]
Elite Airbase Modifier=1.0 ;[>0] Modifier for elite airbase (carrier) rating[STOCK=1/FOTRSU=1]
Night Modifier=0.45 ;[>0] Modifier on strike probability at night[STOCK=0.5/FOTRSU=0.5]
Default Air Strike Probability=8 ;[>0] Default probability to send an airstrike from a airbase (carrier)STOCK=10/FOTRSU=10]
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=35;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a radio message sent[STOCK=30/FOTRSU=38]
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=60;[>0] Increase over the default probability on contact message sent[STOCK=70/FOTRSU=65]
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=48;[>0] Increase over the default probability on player detection[STOCK=40/FOTRSU=70]
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] Decrease from an increased probability to default on each air session[STOCK=10/FOTRSU=10]
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=42 ;[>0] Steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval (90sec) [STOCK=10/FOTRSU=25]

We set all airplanes and airbases to "Elite" so the planes fly better. We also shortened the range in FotRSU since we were getting small planes way beyond their actual capabilities, and increased the Logic Steps substantially. The math for that is "42 steps times the 90, times 10) which equals 378000 seconds, which comes to about every 10.5 hours, which seems to make sense in most areas, as far as traffic patterns are concerned. A few things to remember about the figures is that ALL the AirBases near where you are respond to your submarine's presence. So if you are detected, you might four or five or more airbases sending everything they have after your submarine. Very unrealistic. That Logic Steps is something to really experiment with.

The AirBase Modifiers are multiplication things that increase (>1) or decrease an AirBases (<1) capability to respond, and how strong that response is. So an Elite AirBase in the mod not only sends a strong airplane, but it sends 2.5 times that response, and that figure divides the Logic Steps, since the AirBase is capable of responding faster, so now in FotRSU, that 2.5 modifier would make our 10.5 hour session into less than 2 and a quarter hours - from each base of that CrewRating level that you are within range of, so you might be blanketed in airplanes if detected in the Bay of Biscay. Most of the other "modifiers" for radio and night, etc., are "percentages", which modify the Logic Steps also, such that if you sent a radio message to BdU, you increase the odds of an air attack in your immediate area by 40%. It can be a real bother to attempt to balance those settings, and as mentioned, the number of available airbases (land or carrier based) comes into play.

One really strange quirk in the game's airplanes, no matter the mod or how high the airplane's CrewRating (Elite flies the best), but if your submarine is detected and an airbase responds and sends airplanes your way, but there is an intervening land mass higher than 500 meters (the default height planes spawn at), the airplanes will crash into said land mass... they cannot fly over or around the land mass. They will beeline on the shortest route to your submarine...

Hi propbeanie,

Wow, seems to be a real science and YOU are the professor! Many thanks for your answers!

Quick clarification questions:

- When you say 'Stock Game', you mean Sh4 Pacific Wolves, yes?

- What does 'FotRSU' stand for?

- When you say, 'We set all airplanes and airbases to "Elite', who is meant with 'We'?

- When looking at 'my' (KSDII-Ace) airstrike.cfg settings, is it in your estimation 'normal' that I would not encounter any A/C?

- Which settings should I use to increase the probabilty of A/C attacks?

Thanks again!

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

Hi Bubblehead1980,


This is interesting to me! I'm currently trying out KSDIIAce, October 1942, leaving Bordeaux through the Bay of Biscay and now postioned west of the Canary Islands, heading toward South America: Not a single enemy A/C in 1 week!


I'm beginning to wonder, if there is something wrong with the airstrike.cfg settings. Don't get me wrong: It's not like that I want to be killed by A/C, but zero airplanes seems a bit "unrealistic" to me. Would you (or anyone else) have any ideas, what could be the issue?


Here are my current "Data/Cfg/AirStrike.cfg" settings (no changes made):

[AirStrikeSettings]
; AirStrike Creation Parameters
; Airstrike Session:
; 1. Compute airbases in range according to their aircraft maximum ranges
; 2. Compute air coverage factors on allies/axis/neutral on the target zone
; 3. Compute airstrike probability from each base
; 3.1 check number of aircraft that can strike at that range and conditions, and compute a coverage factor based on the range of each aircraft type
; and detection area around submarine ( 10 km radius )
; 3.2 multiply coverage factor for the target area with :
; - current airstrike probability againt that side
; - nigft factor ( if necessary )
; - airbase competence
; - close to airbase factor
; 3.3 check probability for airstrike
; 3.4 add more aircraft probabilistically for a large target


Maximum Aircraft Range=1500 ;[>0] in kilometers
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.7 ;[>0] Modifier for poor airbase (carrier) rating
Novice Airbase Modifier=1.3 ;[>0] Modifier for novice airbase (carrier) rating
Competent Airbase Modifier=1.7 ;[>0] Modifier for competent airbase (carrier) rating
Veteran Airbase Modifier=2.2 ;[>0] Modifier for veteran airbase (carrier) rating
Elite Airbase Modifier=2.5 ;[>0] Modifier for elite airbase (carrier) rating
Night Modifier=0.15 ;[>0] Modifier on strike probability at night
Default Air Strike Probability=30 ;[>0] Default probability to send an airstrike from a airbase (carrier)
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=40 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a radio message sent
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=70 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a contact message sent
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=50 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on player detection
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] decrease from an increased probability to default one on each air session
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=40 ;[>0] steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval(90sec)

I am still looking into the Dark Waters airplane situation.


I used my airstrike.cfg from TMO Update V.20 mod I made. I'm not at home or would just post the file here.

Thus far I have had more planes but still too few. I am waiting to see how things perform as war goes on. There may be issues with airbase placement (Propbeanie mentioned the land mass issue) as well as the airbase rosters. If numbers are too few to cover their patrol radius defined in the airstrike.cfg, will not see many, if any planes.

I have not had a chance but also possible they are set to competent or worse and not veteran or elite, that can play into things.


The factors below are rather low also.

Default Air Strike Probability=30>>>I increased it to 90 I believe


Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=50>>>changed this to 95 I believe.

[Bubblehead1980]

I loaded up Dark Waters on my laptop while out of town. Ugh I miss the desktop use exclusively for SH 4 at home lol.


Anyways, left port on Feb 3 1941 in a Type IXB (prefer Type VII but figured would give the big boy a try). I am assigned to U-123 and as such decided to change captain to her real Captain's name, Reinhard Hardegen.

Patrol took me down to Africa, off Cape Verde Islands. I searched and searched for convoys but nothing. Used the maps that came with Dark Wates, nothing.

All found so far was three merchants, armed, making fast runs solo. Two were not even in my assigned grid, the third was.


Now April 1941 and turning for home after 60+ days at sea. Wondering if its just me if anyone else found convoys in this time period? Seems the Africa convoys from Freetown would be booming by this point

[Kapitän]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

I am still looking into the Dark Waters airplane situation.


I used my airstrike.cfg from TMO Update V.20 mod I made. I'm not at home or would just post the file here.

Thus far I have had more planes but still too few. I am waiting to see how things perform as war goes on. There may be issues with airbase placement (Propbeanie mentioned the land mass issue) as well as the airbase rosters. If numbers are too few to cover their patrol radius defined in the airstrike.cfg, will not see many, if any planes.

I have not had a chance but also possible they are set to competent or worse and not veteran or elite, that can play into things.


The factors below are rather low also.

Default Air Strike Probability=30>>>I increased it to 90 I believe


Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=50>>>changed this to 95 I believe.

Thanks! I will give these two settings a try. Can I do that with a current game save, i.e., make the change and restart the game and load a current game save, or do I need to start a new patrol?