The future of europe?/Islam threads (Merged)

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Another small step for Eurabia: A Muslim Constitution in Europe.

All part of the world Muslim conspiracy to take over the planet - first Eurpe, then the world!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by scandium

All part of the world Muslim conspiracy to take over the planet - first Eurpe, then the world!

As a matter of fact, ruling of all world and every single man is written, postulated, practiced, historically proven nature and essence of Islamic ideology. But even if you read it black on white in their scriptures, and their scholars confirm it to you when you ask them, and their speakers (to which the overwhelming majoirty of Muslims do not reject or oppose and remain sielnt instead) demand this policy to be followed in international Muslim conferences or "intercultural meetings", and when seeing the parallels between Islam's theological demand, and it's history of the last 1400 years, you still would not believe it, for it violates the conclusions of your Western civilized way of reasonable thinking, and you probaly happen to know a friendly Muslim colleague that is not like this and who tells you that Islam simply is misunderstood, and actually teaches someting very different. So the "" goes to you in fact: "I am not like that, so others cannot be like that, too. They are all like me."

[mapuc]

To all of you how have made tribute to this thread

What are you gonna do about this "islamic threat"?

keep on voting as you always have done?

or what

For me it seems like we are talking to a chair, while the real theif is keeping on stealing.

Markus

[Skybird]

I certainly do a bit more than just stopping to vote. I focus on my contacts to people in my private life, friends, strangers, people I meet by chance. I have stopped every acting and behavior that could make Islamic people feeling welcomed, and accepted, and when they confront me on that I leave them in no doubt that some elementary politeness is all they can get from me. I do not rent appartments in my mother's house to Muslim colonists, and I do not leave anyone in doubt who is asking me that I do not want Islam in Europe, and what I think of it. Where the talking goes in such directions, I try to make people think about Islam, and to see the heavily biased and censored media reports as a huge danger that bypasses democracy and unilaterally helps Islamic agendas. I tell them how it is linked to the political left, and the eurocratic monster in Brussel. I try to make them doubt at all cost, and stop to repeat slogans like trained parrots. I tell them of my travelling experiences, and how long it took for me to see the deatils fall into place, finally. I explain them the history of Islam again and again and again, until they agree and see the relevance for the present, or turn away in anger. I stubbornly challenge every distorting self-description of Muslims that try that while I am listening, calm and not on a personal level, but not giving them any ground. I have interrupted Islamic information speeches of missionary stands in the city's pedestrian-zone twice in the last 18 months, and corrected any lie they told and where I had the knowledge to correct it, loud enough that every bystander was hearing me and they could not continue, mostly I did like that with regard to history, and the person of Muhammad. the finally took their stands and books and left, since I settled down and did not indicate to leave before them. I'm sure my face is known to quite some people in this city's Muslim community here, n ot often, but occasionaly a stranger looking like if he is coming from the middle east or SE-Asia meets me, most times at work in a warehouse, and greets me with a bitterly angered look. If he starts a discussion, I take him directly and head-on, just as he wishes, and even had trouble with my boss becasue of that, so be it. I have made myself some serious enemies by telling every person asking me on Islam, or making lying statements about Islam with me being present, what I hold Islam accountable for. I can tell of that hate from their threatening paper-letters. I take their warnings as a compliment that I do something right. What I do in principal is only this: I do not step back a single step anymore, and if an Islamic person happens to hinder my way, metaphorically, I do not change course but fully slam into him make him to free my way. I do not cooperate, and I do not evade a fight (so far, verbal fights). - What I also did was teaching meditation for several years, until last winter. The intention had nothing to do with Islam, but it should have helped to immunize those who were there to resist it friendly lies more easily. - i am also not shy of discussing these things via internet, as visitors of this forum might have noticed - Now, what is it that YOU are doing?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

All part of the world Muslim conspiracy to take over the planet - first Eurpe, then the world!

It's not a conspiracy. It's elementary Islamic doctrine.

You know what? All you've ever been able to do here is snicker, without an ounce of proof - theological, historical or otherwise - to your claim that Islam is not interested in making the world Islamic.

Why don't you try quoting the Islamic verses and legal texts you base your opinion on. Why don't you give us a serious go at logically and rationally showing how we're wrong.

I dare you.

Waiting...................................

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

It's not a conspiracy. It's elementary Islamic doctrine.

You know what? All you've ever been able to do here is snicker, without an ounce of proof - theological, historical or otherwise - to your claim that Islam is not interested in making the world Islamic.

Why don't you try quoting the Islamic verses and legal texts you base your opinion on. Why don't you give us a serious go at logically and rationally showing how we're wrong.

I dare you.

Waiting...................................

I'll do one better on this one and give you a pass on it, since all religions - to continue to exist - need to expand their followers and in the process tend to spread out. Its the leap from that to your sinister Islamic world domination predictions that I find rather dodgy; after all, Islam doesn't exist in a vacuum and there are other competing ideologies (theological and otherwise) that are not compatible with the formation of Islamic theocracy in the West. In this vein, one obstacle is our separation of church and state; another is the large christian populations which have its own expanionist (theologically, if not democgraphically via birth rate) tendencies; then there is the already entrenched liberalization of our societies which are at ideological odds with theocracy (Islamic or otherwise); etc.

Actually from my perspective, living in this particular hemisphere where Islam is particularly marginalized and not one single Islamic government exists, I'm much more wary of the encroachment of Christian theocracy (since they are the ones here with the population, money, influence, and willingness to use all of it) than I am of any other. But even the Christian theocrats here, which are the ones with the leverage in this equation, have had very little real impact and this is why I tend to scoff at your Islamophobia I suppose.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

I'll do one better on this one and give you a pass on it, since all religions - to continue to exist - need to expand their followers and in the process tend to spread out.

What would happen if Christian affiliation shrank world-wide?

What about Judaism? We have no urgent need to "expand their followers", as you put it.

What about Budhism?

Hinduism?

Now, what about Islam? Of course, you skirt the question - again.

Its the leap from that to your sinister Islamic world domination predictions

While I might have predictions, they are based on what Islam teaches, what Muslims are saying worldwide and what Muslim's do and the actions they take and promote. And you?

that I find rather dodgy; after all, Islam doesn't exist in a vacuum and there are other competing ideologies (theological and otherwise) that are not compatible with the formation of Islamic theocracy in the West.

Precisely. You still don't catch on. Let me give you a sample:

"As the only religion of truth that exists on earth today, Islam takes appropriate action to remove all physical and material obstacles that try to impeded its efforts to liberate mankind from submission from anyone other than God. That submission is translated in following the religion of truth, provided that every human being is given free choice. There must be no pressure either from the religion itself or from those forces putting up the physical obstacles. The practical way to ensure the removal of those physical obstacles while not forcing anyone to adopt Islam is to smash the power of those authorities based on false beliefs until they declare their submission and demonstrate this by paying the submission tax. When this happens, the process of liberating mankind is completed by giving every individual the freedom of choice based on conviction. Anyone who is not convinced may continue to follow his own faith. However, he has to pay the submission tax to fulfill a number of objectives..... by paying this tax, known as the jizyah, he declares that he will not stand in physical opposition to the efforts advocating the true Divine faith."

This small excerpt, is taken from the book In the Shade of the Qur'an, an extensive commentary on the Quran, by Sayyid Qutb, considered one of the greatest Sunni scholars of the 20th century.

For the nitty-gritty details of Qutb's popular philosophy of global Jihad, read his essay Jihad in the Cause of God, reproduced in the book Milestones.

There are hundreds more where this comes from, all from renowned and respected Islamic clergyman, based on what Islam's jurists have been saying all along for 1400 years. For heaven's sake, read some books - theirs, not ours, if you're so distrustful!

In this vein, one obstacle is our separation of church and state; another is the large christian populations which have its own expanionist (theologically, if not democgraphically via birth rate) tendencies;

So who's been boiled in oil or burned at the cross lately?

then there is the already entrenched liberalization of our societies which are at ideological odds with theocracy (Islamic or otherwise); etc.

In simpler terms, an arch-enemy of Islam. You still don't get it.

Actually from my perspective, living in this particular hemisphere where Islam is particularly marginalized and not one single Islamic government exists, I'm much more wary of the encroachment of Christian theocracy (since they are the ones here with the population, money, influence, and willingness to use all of it) than I am of any other. But even the Christian theocrats here, which are the ones with the leverage in this equation, have had very little real impact and this is why I tend to scoff at your Islamophobia I suppose.

Suit yourself.

[Skybird]

Buddhist world power! Yeah! They are fearsome conquerors, beware! Look how brutally they have subjugated the better part of Asia! How they creep for global dominance! They spread like the plague in Western cities! And then their funny clothes, don't get me started...

And then those churches of today! They throw every infidel into prison and kick him out of their countries! they have progroms by the dozens each year, slaughtering thousnads and tens of thousands! And just how sly the strip Muslims of all legal protections and rights, it could drive you mad! They demand Mosaic laws to rule over Islamic culture! they even are arrogant enough to carefully ask for freedom to practice non-Islamic cults in Islamic countries without getting depressed and made object of legal and social reprisals! How dare they? They have attacked peaceful Muhammadian country back then, and tried to enforce the submission of Islam in Saudi Arabia! They have lost all Byzantium'S territories to Islamic onvaders, well, sin'T that a sign of how sly and clever they are! No wonder that Islam headed for Gibraltar, France, Byzantium, Vienna. A clear act of self-defense against marauding crusaders! shame on them!

Yeah, all religions are equal, sure. Everything is equal, everything is of the same value, every man is as valuable as every other man, there are not qualitative differences, it is all nicely and well-meaningly levelled out. Long live the equality of victim and perpetrator, long live the equality of the noble and the rogue, long live the the equality of those that create, and those that steal it without caring to add their effort to the creating cause!

Long live the tolerance for greed, slyness and envy!

The one who has rejected all identity of himself, has no tool available anymore to form criterias to decide what he tolerates, and what not. Becasue he has not only no solid ground to stand on, he has no ground at all, and call this the absence of indoctrination. For him, all and everything is levelled-out, of same size and value, vague in form, undifferenciated in quality. He lives in mental lethargy, and calls it liberty. He is a walking dead, spreading paralysis around him.

I cannot remember how many people like this I have seen coming to my courses throughout the last years. Needs quite a good ammount of shocks and pushings to blow back some life into such cadavers.

[aaken]

is there still a point to this thread (if it ever had one)?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by aaken

is there still a point to this thread (if it ever had one)?

Yes. Try reading.

EDIT: Actually, posts like yours are part of what this thread is about.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yeah, all religions are equal, sure. Everything is equal, everything is of the same value, every man is as valuable as every other man, there are not qualitative differences, it is all nicely and well-meaningly levelled out. Long live the equality of victim and perpetrator, long live the equality of the noble and the rogue, long live the the equality of those that create, and those that steal it without caring to add their effort to the creating cause!

I'm no expert on Islam, but I knowe enough of it to realize that all who practice it are not identical. Most, in fact, of its 1.2 billion followers, seem to do so peacefully. For those that don't, how much of their actions are due to the religion itself and how much to other factors? Skybird, you are guilty of the very same thing the eugenics followers were back in its heyday - only where they tried to simplify everything to genetics, you substitute Islam and draw the same faulty conclusions. Unfortunately for your theories, and you should know better, people are not that simple.

Long live the tolerance for greed, slyness and envy!

No, long live rationality and judging a person on their actions and not their religion, race, or gender.

The one who has rejected all identity of himself, has no tool available anymore to form criterias to decide what he tolerates, and what not. Becasue he has not only no solid ground to stand on, he has no ground at all, and call this the absence of indoctrination. For him, all and everything is levelled-out, of same size and value, vague in form, undifferenciated in quality. He lives in mental lethargy, and calls it liberty. He is a walking dead, spreading paralysis around him.

Really? I would think it more challenging to judge a person on their actions and character than to paint people into neat little categories like you are doing... 'oh you are christian, therefore you are Good and Noble... Muslim? well you are greedy, sly, and envious...'

[Skybird]

Is it also eugenic to brandmark Naszism as something bad? If an ideology by content and historical example has proven itself to be of "evil", must it nevertheless be tolerated, in the name of a greater tolerance? If a majority of people whose "faith" is so much diverse, as you indicate, remains silent and inactive and do nothing efficient to ban those "radicals" that claim to represent this faith in it's true form (and I insist on that they have Muhammad and Koran and history on their side in this claim), does this not allow to make logical conclusions about these silent majorities attitude towards those (infidels) at whose cost this abuse of their precious ideology is being practiced (like it is argued that the Palestinians are not responisble for having elected Hamas in to office?). Must I not believe a Muslim who preaches my subjugation and my second-class value as a human being, if his own people do nothing, nothing, nothing, to make him shut up, quit his rank and office, and make sure that he and people like him cannot get back to representative and administrative powers? Should I mistrust those truly secular groups in Turkish population that warn the West to acceopt Turkey or Islam and ignroing it's agenda to bring down Western values and coinstitutional orders and make them submit to Islam? when i see these observations and comapre them to the theology and the history of Islam and see it in correspondence since over a thousand years, should I ignore it and think of it as pure random chance? Is it a peaceful attitude of mind if people do not commit bloodshed with their own hands - but allow that some commit it, in their names and the name of their belief? Is that reasonable, convincing, civilized, unbiased? Should I assume that a robber and thief, a warmonger, massmurder and narcistic psychopath, a greedy sly desert gangster for whom all world he knew still was not enough, and who has ordered over 70 wars and predatory raids, who tried to wipe out whole tribes because their intellectuals were superior to his own self-made education, who murdered by his own hands before he preached the first time, who sent hundred and thousands of captured females into slavery, who murdered critics and people who did not believe his megalomania - should I assume that such a man could be the origin of a cult that promises peace, justice and reason? Should I take people who still believe in this sick figure and stubbornly reject to ever ask question about themselves and never test their belief (as has been done by almost every other greater religion that has survived until today) as people whose civilisation is of equal value and as worthy a set of ethics than ours? - Truth is, I do exactly as you recommend: I judge Muslim communities in cities, countries by their deeds, and what they alloow to be happening in their name, or not. And this is what speaks against them, loud, and with an alomost yelling voice. - A US GI enters A German house and sees the bright spots on the wall where the photos of the Führer were hanging. The houseowner comes down the stairs and says he was no Nazi, and he still is no Nazi, and Fascism is bad. He insists that Hitler is a great man, and the party always is right. You take him as an honest democrat and ignore the contradictions. I do not trust him a bit, and label him a Nazi. I let the deeds and facts speak, for words are cheap and must not be true. - Deeds, dear Islam, no words, promises, declarations, all of which you, dear Islam, explicitly allow to be abused in lies and deceptions if it is for the purposes to weaken the infidels and strengthen Islam. Some days ago, the British Muslim community sent a speaker to the microphones, after one year the finally said that it is not legitimate to kill innocents in the name of Islam. At the same time statements by even higher-ranking clerics from ALL Muslim countries that population of wetsern coutries are no innocents, since years and decades remain anquestioned,unchallenged, uncritizised by public Muslim organization and communities. Cheap wordplays only, not worth anything. But according to you, Scnadium, this just means nothing. But it is sly indeed, and greed and env plays a major role in Muhammad's demand to rule and own all world. Islam is his baby. Like it never was enough for him, it never is enough for Islam as well. That is no cheap slogan by me, that I conclude after having studied Islamic history and Muhammad's biography and character qith quite some effort and material. If I really were that stupid like you indicate, then you might want to explain why I do not attack races, other religions and cultures (burning widows inHinduism isn'T nice, is it?) thta are also present inGermany and europe. Africans for example, in huge numbers. Hindus. Indians. Jews.... Poor Islam (or shall I say Muhammadanism, becasue it exclusively is about what Muhammad has created in word, deed and sermon), mean evil Skybird just misunderstood how wellmeaning you really are. That you, poor Islam, has fought more wars against other Islamic factions than any other world religion ever has fought within itself (you can simply count it out in history books), and that innocent peaceloving Islam has started more wars of attack against other cultures than any other religion (including the bad evil "Christians", please do the counting thing again), I'm sure is only accidental. That Muslims today destroy cemetaries of foreign religionsin their territories, and destroy cultural monuments of historic value because they remind them of the time before the arrival of Islam, the time of chaos (if that is not ironic), and that all this take splace without a single Muslim country raisng it's voice against that, and withoiut a single muslim organization makes itself heared and noticed by effective dcededs to stop those who do it, certainly has no meaning that is worth to think about. Because we must be solidaric in our decision to think of Islam as being an equal.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

What would happen if Christian affiliation shrank world-wide?

What about Judaism? We have no urgent need to "expand their followers", as you put it.

What about Budhism?

Hinduism?

What about them? At a minimum all of those religions have established at least enough growth to sustain themselves over the millenia and have also spread far beyond their original borders. Christianity and Islam have both been especially successfully at expansion.

While I might have predictions, they are based on what Islam teaches, what Muslims are saying worldwide and what Muslim's do and the actions they take and promote. And you?

I base mine on history, an atlas, and demographics. While Islam has spread, yes, so has every other religion - so what? Islam still competes with other religions and other ideologies. Your fears might be well founded - if we turned back the clock about 5 centuries and removed every other major religion to leave only Islam. As it stands now there is no vacuum for it to fill.