Who do you think you are fooling?

Jonny-Dog · 11-24-20, 05:17 PM

You have taken our money.

If you work in stead of driving your $$$ car being rich playboy.

We have given you our money, you are now millionaires. Start working!!!!!!

Onkel Neal · 11-24-20, 05:53 PM

Hey, when did you start working for the NSA, Jonny-Dog?

Jonny-Dog · 11-24-20, 05:59 PM

Edit:
I have removed my post as I see it was inappropriate.

Jonny-Dog

Onkel Neal · 11-24-20, 06:37 PM

Jonny,

I can understand your frustration but I don't think it's appropriate or professional to slur the devs. Not only are you a well-known streamer, you have a good reputation here. Please keep in mind, this is the Subsim forum, and we like to keep a civil tone in our discussions. Criticism is welcome if accompanied with tact.

Getting this simulation to completion was always going to be an uphill battle because it's hard as hell to do with one programmer and one artist. We originally thought the schedule to early access would be a year, it turned out to be nearly three. But, let me stress two things: the work got done -- no one threw up their hands and quit; and it was pretty darn good work.

As for the $$, the devs have not invited me to any of their parties on the French Riviera, maybe cause I'm not cool enough, but probably because they are not goofing off, it's just hard work, building a really good sim on your first project as a developer.

Now we're working toward the full release, it may take another year, or three, we'll see. You should consider this, they have hired an additional 3D modeler (Koji) full time and they are planning to add another programmer in Jan, full time. This should help the pace.

Have a good Thanksgiving, Jonny.
Neal

11-26-20, 06:09 AM

Can somebody explain why the dev's stoped working on the Scapa Flow mission (where they worked on for more than 6 month) to work now on a new water asset?

Onkel Neal · 11-26-20, 12:06 PM

Yes, the work on Scapa Flow (and the campaign) depends on the map coordinate system and height map system and enemy AI. To get the game in playable shape, time spent on the AI was limited to making it work well in mid-ocean environments. The game AI doesn't know about land yet.

To make land-based missions, work on the map system was begun but the devs discovered the game would need the newest version of Unity to work or they would have to do the work twice.

Also, to speed up the development process to get the game to early access and therefore financially self-sufficient, we bought an off-the-shelf water asset. This asset was good enough for the game to work properly but it had been deprecated so eventually, to keep the Unity game engine current, we had to make our own water element. As you can imagine, the water element is pretty crucial in a submarine game. Every object has to be accounted for on the z-axis, so changing the water element is a major chunk of work. So, create and tune the water asset had to get done first.

Last year about this time, we went through the same process on the network code. The initial version worked, but Oscar learned ways to make it better, more responsive and less prone to drops (a bad thing in MP games). So, even though it's the least glamorous part of the game, the network code upgrade costs a couple of months time.

So, the roadmap was restructured earlier this year to get the core components of the game sorted.

11-26-20, 12:32 PM

Thanks Neal for the information. Well, am done with this game, unfortunately I can't refund the game at Steam due to too much hours played. I have asked the same question on steam and one of the dev's treated me like **** and banned me from steam forum. A total unprofessional behavior from my point of view.

Honestly on my opinion this isn't a good development plan and it will not players stay tuned and/or win new players to the game....

Just my two cents...

ceh · 11-26-20, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wangtze

Honestly on my opinion this isn't a good development

As a software developer I can tell you that plans are constantly subject to change. As Uncle Neal explained, things happened that influenced the order of operations. Normal stuff. Actually in such a situation, it's MUCH better to change the plans than to rush, or do the same job twice. Yes, it incurs delays, and that's for the better, actually.

Patience is a virtue that should be more than familiar to sub lovers, so I'm a bit confused at the rant here. Now, if someone is going to act as an entitled brat, that's their prerogative. Neal was more than understanding in conversing with whatshisface, and I salute him for that.

Keep up the good work gents, we'll be here to welcome all the good stuff whenever it comes.

11-26-20, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceh

As a software developer I can tell you that plans are constantly subject to change. As Uncle Neal explained, things happened that influenced the order of operations. Normal stuff. Actually in such a situation, it's MUCH better to change the plans than to rush, or do the same job twice. Yes, it incurs delays, and that's for the better, actually.

Patience is a virtue that should be more than familiar to sub lovers, so I'm a bit confused at the rant here. Now, if someone is going to act as an entitled brat, that's their prerogative. Neal was more than understanding in conversing with whatshisface, and I salute him for that.

Keep up the good work gents, we'll be here to welcome all the good stuff whenever it comes.

Oh I know that, i worked for a while in IT sector and was part of software development, so I haven't a problem with changing plans etc. But to say we stop it and release a mission editor and don't explain why to step back and work on basics issn't good.

Also banning people without any warning cause they critism a dev decision or asking for explaination is a very unprofessinal behavior. Again without any warning!

And btw there are many requests by new players to add the TDC solution on the map, which will be always denied by dev's with the words (simple speaking) "This is a hardcore Sim go and learn this stuff by yourself in the internet"...sorry but you can't tread people like this.

BTW the EA release was in March 2019 and we are in November 2020 now.

And yes things can happen and schedules and plans can be changed but you have to communicate this to the community in a transparent way and I don't see this happen on Steam. Maybe they do it on discord or here on subsim fine but many players bought the game on steam and the steam forum is first place to get informations.

A weekly update is fine, but just always saying we work currently on this ....we work now on that isn't enough thats looks like copy and paste the same stuff over and over again....

This is all not new and was discussed and claimed very often

Onkel Neal · 11-26-20, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wangtze

Thanks Neal for the information. Well, am done with this game, unfortunately I can't refund the game at Steam due to too much hours played. I have asked the same question on steam and one of the dev's treated me like **** and banned me from steam forum. A total unprofessional behavior from my point of view.

Honestly on my opinion this isn't a good development plan and it will not players stay tuned and/or win new players to the game....

Just my two cents...

Yes, that was me.

Quote:

Can somebody explain why the dev's stoped working on the Scapa Flow mission (where they worked on for more than 6 month) to work now on a new water asset?

You see what a difference it makes when you post with a little tact, as you did here? You get a civil answer. You are the only person banned in the Steam forum since the game came out.

If this is a good development plan or not, that's certainly a matter of opinion. The devs, who actually know what's under the hood, feel this is the best and most efficient plan. We have explained this in several Q&A sessions on Discord, and I'm sure here.

And since you own the game, there's no reason you cannot put it aside for a year and come back and enjoy it with the updates. You would be welcome to do so.

Onkel Neal · 11-26-20, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Also banning people without any warning cause they critism a dev decision or asking for explaination is a very unprofessinal behavior. Again without any warning!

I handle things differently on Steam forums, I don't commit as much of my time and energy addressing rude posts there as I do here.

11-26-20, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Yes, that was me.

You see what a difference it makes when you post with a little tact, as you did here? You get a civil answer. You are the only person banned in the Steam forum since the game came out.

If this is a good development plan or not, that's certainly a matter of opinion. The devs, who actually know what's under the hood, feel this is the best and most efficient plan. We have explained this in several Q&A sessions on Discord, and I'm sure here.

And since you own the game, there's no reason you cannot put it aside for a year and come back and enjoy it with the updates. You would be welcome to do so.

Jesus,

ceh · 11-26-20, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wangtze

And btw there are many requests by new players to add the TDC solution on the map, which will be always denied by dev's with the words (simple speaking) "This is a hardcore Sim go and learn this stuff by yourself in the internet"...sorry but you can't tread people like this.

I respectfully disagree.

I'm 40 odd years old, and have been gaming since mid 80s. I have seen many games watered down because publishers/developers pampered the players, or went for the "largest common denominator" approach.

I've touched on some of the points of why this is bad in a discussion about third person views, if you are interested you can probably find that in my post history.

The developers are well within their rights to keep to their idea of how the game should work. I, for one, am grateful for the hardcore sim approach.
If you are so adamant about the feature you want, maybe this is not a game for you. And that's OK.

stellaferox · 11-27-20, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Yes, the work on Scapa Flow (and the campaign) depends on the map coordinate system and height map system and enemy AI. To get the game in playable shape, time spent on the AI was limited to making it work well in mid-ocean environments. The game AI doesn't know about land yet.

To make land-based missions, work on the map system was begun but the devs discovered the game would need the newest version of Unity to work or they would have to do the work twice.

Also, to speed up the development process to get the game to early access and therefore financially self-sufficient, we bought an off-the-shelf water asset. This asset was good enough for the game to work properly but it had been deprecated so eventually, to keep the Unity game engine current, we had to make our own water element. As you can imagine, the water element is pretty crucial in a submarine game. Every object has to be accounted for on the z-axis, so changing the water element is a major chunk of work. So, create and tune the water asset had to get done first.

Last year about this time, we went through the same process on the network code. The initial version worked, but Oscar learned ways to make it better, more responsive and less prone to drops (a bad thing in MP games). So, even though it's the least glamorous part of the game, the network code upgrade costs a couple of months time.

So, the roadmap was restructured earlier this year to get the core components of the game sorted.

Neal, if only this info would reach us regularly instead of "working on the water, coming soon..." every week, I would be much more confident in the end result. I know communication isn't the core business of technicians but it would certainly help to be more open. Everyone who love subsims know that it takes time, especially for a two-man team. Just be transparant about it.

Onkel Neal · 11-27-20, 10:03 AM

I understand, thank you for the feedback. As I said, we have had several open mic Q&A sessions, plus I've tried to keep the public and player-base updated.

I've posted the original roadmap with a summary of features added below. Why did anything change? The answer is always: The devs found this the most efficient use of their time; to avoid duplicating work or doing work that would be rendered moot with future work; and to allow the best use of resources (work with latest versions of Unity, completing features that future features will need, etc.).

So, when the weekly update does not satisfy, just read the paragraph above. That's the answer.

Update Nov 2020

Original Roadmap

Actual features added during post-EA release. During the ongoing development, the team found it more time-efficient
to complete some features out of sequence from the original roadmap.

Current roadmap: as determined by the most time-efficient path.

11-24-20, 05:17 PM	#1
Jonny-Dog Sailor man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 44 Downloads: 142 Uploads: 0	Who do you think you are fooling? You have taken our money. If you work in stead of driving your $$$ car being rich playboy. We have given you our money, you are now millionaires. Start working!!!!!! Last edited by Jonny-Dog; 11-24-20 at 05:50 PM. Reason: So... From Sweden... What more to expect?

11-24-20, 05:59 PM	#3
Jonny-Dog Sailor man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 44 Downloads: 142 Uploads: 0	Edit: I have removed my post as I see it was inappropriate. Jonny-Dog Last edited by Jonny-Dog; 11-26-20 at 04:24 AM.

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11-24-20, 05:53 PM	#2
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Hey, when did you start working for the NSA, Jonny-Dog?

11-24-20, 06:37 PM	#4
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Jonny, I can understand your frustration but I don't think it's appropriate or professional to slur the devs. Not only are you a well-known streamer, you have a good reputation here. Please keep in mind, this is the Subsim forum, and we like to keep a civil tone in our discussions. Criticism is welcome if accompanied with tact. Getting this simulation to completion was always going to be an uphill battle because it's hard as hell to do with one programmer and one artist. We originally thought the schedule to early access would be a year, it turned out to be nearly three. But, let me stress two things: the work got done -- no one threw up their hands and quit; and it was pretty darn good work. As for the $$, the devs have not invited me to any of their parties on the French Riviera, maybe cause I'm not cool enough, but probably because they are not goofing off, it's just hard work, building a really good sim on your first project as a developer. Now we're working toward the full release, it may take another year, or three, we'll see. You should consider this, they have hired an additional 3D modeler (Koji) full time and they are planning to add another programmer in Jan, full time. This should help the pace. Have a good Thanksgiving, Jonny. Neal

11-26-20, 06:09 AM	#5
wangtze Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Can somebody explain why the dev's stoped working on the Scapa Flow mission (where they worked on for more than 6 month) to work now on a new water asset?

11-26-20, 12:06 PM	#6
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Yes, the work on Scapa Flow (and the campaign) depends on the map coordinate system and height map system and enemy AI. To get the game in playable shape, time spent on the AI was limited to making it work well in mid-ocean environments. The game AI doesn't know about land yet. To make land-based missions, work on the map system was begun but the devs discovered the game would need the newest version of Unity to work or they would have to do the work twice. Also, to speed up the development process to get the game to early access and therefore financially self-sufficient, we bought an off-the-shelf water asset. This asset was good enough for the game to work properly but it had been deprecated so eventually, to keep the Unity game engine current, we had to make our own water element. As you can imagine, the water element is pretty crucial in a submarine game. Every object has to be accounted for on the z-axis, so changing the water element is a major chunk of work. So, create and tune the water asset had to get done first. Last year about this time, we went through the same process on the network code. The initial version worked, but Oscar learned ways to make it better, more responsive and less prone to drops (a bad thing in MP games). So, even though it's the least glamorous part of the game, the network code upgrade costs a couple of months time. So, the roadmap was restructured earlier this year to get the core components of the game sorted.

11-26-20, 12:32 PM	#7
wangtze Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Thanks Neal for the information. Well, am done with this game, unfortunately I can't refund the game at Steam due to too much hours played. I have asked the same question on steam and one of the dev's treated me like **** and banned me from steam forum. A total unprofessional behavior from my point of view. Honestly on my opinion this isn't a good development plan and it will not players stay tuned and/or win new players to the game.... Just my two cents...

11-27-20, 10:03 AM	#15
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	I understand, thank you for the feedback. As I said, we have had several open mic Q&A sessions, plus I've tried to keep the public and player-base updated. I've posted the original roadmap with a summary of features added below. Why did anything change? The answer is always: The devs found this the most efficient use of their time; to avoid duplicating work or doing work that would be rendered moot with future work; and to allow the best use of resources (work with latest versions of Unity, completing features that future features will need, etc.). So, when the weekly update does not satisfy, just read the paragraph above. That's the answer. Update Nov 2020 Original Roadmap Actual features added during post-EA release. During the ongoing development, the team found it more time-efficient to complete some features out of sequence from the original roadmap. Current roadmap: as determined by the most time-efficient path.